Category: Podcast

Link to Spotify

In this episode:

Join me on a journey of self-discovery and transformation with my dear friend and cycle breaker coach, Priscilla María. Priscilla María is a Keynote Speaker and Certified Trauma Recovery Coach who empowers others to become cycle breakers. Some cycles her clients are courageously breaking are unresolved trauma, childhood wounds, people-pleasing, self-doubt, domestic violence, and self-criticism.

She has her own coaching practice, Cycle Breakers Club LLC, but also coaches for the Reframe App and a scholarship program that serves first-generation Latinx college students.

This Mental Health Awareness Month, we’re shining a light on the powerful concept of cycle breaking—a vital step in overcoming inherited trauma and addictive behaviors. Priscilla shares her personal healing journey, highlighting the importance of self-awareness and the courage needed to confront and change dysfunctional patterns. Tune in as she offers practical wisdom on using feedback, introspection, and a deep understanding of our nervous system to create a healthier, brighter future.

Resources:

Work with Priscilla

Follow Priscilla on Instagram

Learn about ACEs (adverse childhood experiences)

DBT Resource Mentioned by Priscilla

Six-Week Writing to Heal Program

Transcript:

00:02 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Hey everyone, for this week’s episode, I am super excited to have my friend and also speaker and coach, priscila Gutierrez, here on the episode. So you probably have known her if you’ve seen her on social media as the cycle breaker, and really I am just really honored to have Priscilla here. It is Mental Health Awareness Month and Priscilla has been really just taking off and traveling around the country going to different universities and giving really powerful talks on mental health, so I wanted to bring her on today’s episode specifically to talk about the process of cycle breaking and what are the challenges that come up and how we can go about this work. So, hey, priscilla, hi, beautiful, so good to have you. So for folks who have not been exposed to your work before, who are listening, can you share a little brief overview of your background and the work that you do as a cycle breaker coach?

00:58 – Priscilla Gutiérrez (Guest)
Yes, sure, and thank you for having me as a guest on your platform. I really appreciate it. And so, as far as my work, my whole focus is trauma releasing, trauma recovery, so really encouraging others to heal from whatever they might’ve experienced during this life. That we’re all doing for the first time, and so my background and my education was not in any type of psychology or social work. It was in different subject matters, so social sciences and then law after college. But my lived experiences prepared me for the work that I’m doing now, because throughout my adolescence, my young adulthood, my twenties, I went through a lot of different things, and so I know firsthand what it’s like to be trapped by trauma, and so once I did quite a bit of healing myself, which is an ongoing process, I wanted to use my talents, my skills, my lived experiences to help others also pursue healing.

02:12 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
That’s awesome, and so you know, I think, again, the cycle breaking part is so powerful and I think that that resonates with a lot of folks, because I think a lot of us can recognize, especially if we’re recovering from addiction or recovering from other things right, there’s a lot that we have inherited from the people before us, right, Like our parents, grandparents, et cetera, and so really, my first question is, you know, recognizing that someone is stuck in a cycle, that’s usually the first step to breaking it. But I guess my question really is is how do people even gain that awareness, right? Like, how, how do you even recognize that you’re in a cycle? What, what did this process maybe look like for you? And how does this apply? Say to any of the clients that you work with or people like how do we identify that we are in a cycle in the first place?

03:05 – Priscilla Gutiérrez (Guest)
That’s a great question. Awareness is definitely key and precedes any type of action like at least cognizant action. And so for me, I would say the biggest cycle that I stopped was the drinking, and so my grandfathers were heavy alcohol consumers and for that reason my parents were not drinkers at all. I mean, they’ve never been drunk, like like really belligerent or any none like not at all, and so it really kind of just like skipped a generation, none like not at all. And so it really kind of just like skipped a generation. And then my brother and myself picked it up again. And so alcohol and that cycle, I’ve always known about it since I was a little girl, but once it started to affect my life then it was like, oh okay, this is something that I need to confront. And so what helped me? A few things, I would say feedback from people that I trust, and so that would be my parents at the time. They definitely were observant and encouraged me and supported me in my trips to, encouraged me and supported me in my trips to, you know, the wilderness program, outpatient program, substance abuse support groups, and so I was blessed to have their observations.

04:38
But even before that, I did have this inner voice that was kind of like hmm, something is going awry. Because if you’re going to compare yourself and I say this often comparing yourself to other people is futile. There really is, unless you’re using it for inspiration. That’s good, that can be motivating, like you know. That’s, that’s good, that can be motivating. But when it comes to judging yourself or valuing yourself, the best person to compare yourself if you’re going to is yourself. So once I started to reflect more and be like wait, why am I? I went into college saying I wasn’t going to drink. I went into college saying a lot of things and being a really dedicated student to now being very distracted, prioritizing partying and drinking and going out. And so, because I was able to make a comparison with my current self and my past self, it was undeniable that, okay, I’m evolving into someone that I don’t recognize and never wanted to be like, and so, definitely being self-curious, asking yourself questions. Not all of us have access to our family history, so it’s not required that you have, like, a family tree with okay. So this is you know where the addiction started, or this is where the domestic violence you know started.

06:11
I would say get to know your nervous system. So how do you feel when you interact with other people? When someone gives you a compliment, how do you react? When someone criticizes you, how do you react? What do your relationships look like? Do you have real friends? What do your romantic relationships look like? So, once you just kind of start taking an inventory of your relationships, your habits, your perspectives, your word choice when you speak to yourself and others, it will kind of show itself like oh okay, I’m seeing a common thread of, maybe, anger, I’m seeing a common thread of distrust, you know a little paranoia. And so, for me, I was noticing things. I was noticing a lot of anger, a lot of distrust, a lot of impulsivity, and so that’s really what helped me is observations for people I trusted, and then also being introspective.

07:22 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
And I think that that’s really helpful too, because, well, the point that you made with regard to you don’t necessarily have to have a family tree that outlines everything, because I think what happens a lot nowadays too is we do have a lot of folks being raised in homes where maybe it’s not their birth parents who are raising them, so you really might not have access to this information, but if you have the people around you giving you feedback or like sharing in some kind of way, like hey, I’m worried about you, right, or if you’re recognizing that you yourself are having these patterns that are causing a lot of disruption for you in your life, like that can be important information.

07:58
Maybe it’s generational trauma, maybe it’s not, but the point is you’re stuck in a cycle and here you are having the awareness, so maybe you can move into breaking it. Really, really I love that. And then I had a quick question, because you mentioned that your grandparents drank and then your parents didn’t drink, but then you and your brother did pick it up. I’m just kind of curious did your family like, did your parents ever have conversations with you all about alcohol and like the risks, or was it just they didn’t drink but they didn’t talk about their experiences growing up with their parents.

08:29 – Priscilla Gutiérrez (Guest)
Yeah, thanks for asking that. And one also just a response yeah, when it comes to cycles, it doesn’t. It’s not only generational cycles, it can be individual cycles that you notice within yourself, such as okay, I’ve seen a pattern with the people I date, and so that can be a cycle to look into. And then, as far as the alcohol in my family, so we had conversations around alcohol, for sure, and my mother, for example, she grew up, her childhood home in Ecuador was a bar, so her house doubled as a neighborhood bar, and so she was very much surrounded by highly intoxicated men. She saw the worst side of, you know, alcohol, and so she was extremely turned off to drinking because of what she observed, off to drinking because of what she observed.

09:32
And then my father, yeah, he, he, he wasn’t raised by my dad, my grandfather, and so he, my dad, was very turned off by behaviors that his father uh, partook in, such as promiscuity, such as heavy drinking, domestic violence. So my dad was definitely like I see what my father did and maybe other men that he saw, and he was just like I’m not gonna do that. And then I also recognize that my parents did and and maybe other men that he saw and he was just like I’m not gonna do that. And then I also recognize that my parents childhoods and adolescence were very different from their parents and very different from mine and my brothers. So, for example, my father if you look at his ace score, I I don’t know the exact number, but when I read the questionnaire and I asked him to do it, I’m like you check off a lot of them, not all of them, but just a lot of them.

10:33
So he, even as a kid, almost passed during the massive earthquake I believe it was 1972 in Manawa, and so he thankfully did not. I think he said there was like a rock or something collapsed, like, so it was a close call. And so he was displaced. His family was displaced from Manawa because 90% of the city was devastated, and so they went to La Finca, they went to a farm, and it was a completely different lifestyle. I don’t think he had electricity. Yeah, it was just a different world.

11:14
And so then after that there was a war in Nicaragua, the civil war. So my father had to flee at 14 with my grandmother and my two uncles, otherwise they’re probably going to die, because my uncle was 18 at the time. So they definitely wanted to draft him and so it’s just a lot of chaos, a lot of violence, and so I can’t relate to my father’s upbringing and he can’t really relate to mine, and so I have a lot of, I guess, understanding now more about why my dad is the way he is, why my mom is the way she is, and so with my brother and I, our parents were open, definitely, were like like look at your grandfathers and and look at, you know, other people in the family, like this is not something that you want to really partake in. And and it’s not that they didn’t have any alcohol ever in their life, but probably like extremely rare, like a piña colada or like like super never been, like drunk and intoxicated. There was never alcohol in the house. There was never alcohol and family parties either, because on my mom’s side, at least openly, or I know for sure, probably 90% of them don’t drink same. You know similar reason. I imagine 90% of them don’t drink same. You know similar reason. I imagine my, yeah, so on both sides actually, even the their generation wasn’t big on drinking, but some of my cousins, that’s not the case, and then obviously Yvonne and myself, not the case.

12:57
So I think I think it’s a very complicated answer, but I know that my parents absolutely did the best they could with what they had and what they knew, and they were pretty young parents and they were navigating a new country on their own and so they’re not going to catch every single thing, and so I think my brother I can’t really speak for Yvonne, but I’ll speak for myself it was trauma.

13:29
It was trauma that they didn’t directly cause. It was, you know, other factors, and so I would say the fact that trauma healing and trauma healing and trauma strategies or ways to release, for self-care or mindfulness were not passed down in the family and it’s not not to say that they like deliberately was like, let me just not pass this down. They didn’t have it. So like with my dad when he came with his family, there wasn’t like, okay, let’s sit down and do some group coaching or some group therapy. There was nothing, there was no check-in, there was just survival, and so they didn’t have any tools to pass down to my brother and I. And so I didn’t live in Nicaragua ever. I didn’t live in a war zone, but I very much feel impacted by it vicariously because of the parenting that and the way that it affected my dad and my uncles and grandmother. So I would say it comes down to trauma, honestly trauma and mental health.

14:41 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Yeah, and you know when it’s great that, like you said, our parents for the most part they do the best that they can within like the structures that they have in place. Because, you know, in my family addiction definitely runs pretty rampantly in my family but it’s never any conversation really or any warning about it. It was just like the people who drank too much they were called drunks, you know, they were called borrachos and that was that.

15:14
but there was never any attempt at like, an awareness of like oh, maybe you shouldn’t drink that. You know it. Just, there was literally zero conversation, so I was just curious. So it’s great to see that your parents did talk about it.

15:25
You know, and obviously, yeah, like, there’s a lot of tools that our families, that our parents don’t have, that we have the luxury of having, like being born here, being raised here, you know, having access like, with like, for, in my case, you know, with my job, I have access to like healthcare so I can pay for a therapist. You know things like that, that you know things like that that you know our parents didn’t have like, they didn’t have jobs that were offering them EAP benefits or things like that. The other point, just for anyone listening, you made a mention. You referenced ACE score. So, if anyone is listening, aces are adverse childhood experiences and I’ll post a link in the show notes so that you can take a quiz and see how adverse childhood experiences may have possibly impacted you too. But, yeah, I really appreciate you sharing that perspective with or to your parents.

16:11
So, I mean kind of coming back now to the idea of breaking a cycle. I know we talked a little bit about the awareness, how, what are the signs? How can you tell if you’re stuck in a cycle, whether it’s generational or your own cycle? But breaking a cycle can also be really challenging. And I mean I like to think of you know one of Newton’s laws, you know the law of inertia an object in motion stays in motion, right? So like, if we’re in a habit of living a certain way, of making decisions a certain way, it can be really hard to break from that. So what do you believe are, like, the biggest challenges that someone faces when trying to break cycles, if you don’t mind sharing, say, from your own experience, like what were some of the challenges that you personally encountered in terms of breaking a cycle?

16:59 – Priscilla Gutiérrez (Guest)
I would say awareness and support are key and can be obstacles. So with support, if you don’t have people in your corner, you know true connection, or people that validate you, believe you, that can really be devastating for someone. I have been invalidated. I have been invalidated by family, by therapists, other loved ones, and so that really kept me stuck in a cycle either blamed myself or I. I felt like I didn’t have the right to get support or to to change.

17:50
And then the awareness piece was major. So now I can reflect and see okay, this, for example, in college, with the binge drinking. You know, I am so removed from that life, from that period of my life. It’s been 12 and a half years since I’ve been drunk or drank alcohol and so now I know why I did it. But during those years that I was consuming alcohol, I didn’t have that awareness. I thought everyone in my mind you know, everyone is drinking and I’m just doing me. But now I know and I can, I can look back and think, oh, I remember saying this when I was drunk, I was. That was a cry for help. Or I remember being extremely reactive and in other situations like, oh, okay, that’s because this person reminded me of someone that had harmed me, and so that awareness is really key to to even knowing that there’s something to break.

18:55
Otherwise, you might just think that’s your personality, that’s your culture, that’s just how your family is, and so what I would say is, as far as the awareness piece because, yeah, mental health care is not super accessible in this country is to educate yourself. So hop on online and find some books. I know Jessica has. She does book clubs, so she has like great recommendations when it comes to books for you to learn about. You know, the body keeps the score is a great one where you can learn about the science of trauma, you can learn about how real it is. This is not opinion. This is scientific fact that trauma can absolutely rewire your brain. It can affect how you view the world, how you view yourself, and so learn some. Learn from books, learn from podcasts, learn from documentaries, take courses, if you’re able to, but really start to consume and absorb information around trauma, recovery and mental health.

20:07 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
I love that and I think that that’s really, really important. Like getting informed is one of the most powerful pieces to just make sense of what the hell happened to us. Like reading the books, getting informed, asking questions, learning from others oh, my dog is joining in the background here, I know but yeah, learning from others that that is so, so, so helpful. Speaking of breaking cycles, are there any specific strategies or tools that you feel like are particularly helpful with breaking cycles?

20:42 – Priscilla Gutiérrez (Guest)
Let’s see. I think it will depend on the type of cycle. So when I look at my clients and people that I’ve worked with, I’ve helped people with, uh, it ultimately comes down to mindset, because I’m not a therapist, I’m not a psychologist and so my role is not and I’m not qualified to be clinical, so I’m not here to diagnose anyone or provide them any treatment plans. So what I really focus in on is mindset. Like, what do you tell yourself? And that has been pretty much the consistent theme is, whether it’s a CEO at a company with low self-esteem or a rape survivor from an underserved community, whatever extremes you want to use as examples.

21:35
The mindset we all have a mindset. We all have certain beliefs, certain things that we say to ourselves, certain thoughts and values that we hold on to, and so I think really exploring your mindset can be a game changer. So, whether it’s learning how to be more mindful, learning to be more self-compassionate, learning to be more self-compassionate, anything that allows you to really rewire or unlearn any type of beliefs and thoughts that don’t journey in itself, what I have found helpful I would say what was really helpful was DBT, so dialectical behavioral therapy, and that was recommended for my BPD diagnosis borderline personality disorder that is like a whole course on how to communicate with others effectively, how to manage stress, how to tolerate when you’re upset without maybe doing impulsive or intense reactions, so that is a good starting point as well. I did it in a support group, so in a clinical setting I also did with a therapist, but the good thing about being in 2024 is a lot of this information is accessible online.

23:16
So there’s actually this really cool site that I can share with you, jessica. If you want to put it into the information, it’s kind of like an interactive module for a DBT, where it kind of like breaks down the basics of okay, here are some exact techniques that you can do when you’re upset, and these are some exact techniques you can do when you want to set boundaries, and so that can be really helpful to to learn like oh, this, I just didn’t learn this growing up, I just didn’t see it modeled in my household, and so, yeah, going back to just being inquisitive, yeah, I would absolutely love that resource and yeah, I think, like it’s totally fair that we can recognize, right and we can own, like yeah, there’s a lot of things that we didn’t own or learn when we were at home growing up, and that’s okay, right.

24:11 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Like this is the opportunity where we get to empower ourselves and educate ourselves to make decisions that are going to help us grow and heal. And I think, like you know, to really kind of piggyback off that point. It is 2024. And a lot of this information is online. A lot of this information is accessible, so we don’t have to, because I sometimes feel like I’ve heard, as a coach, when I work one-on-one with people, I hear a lot of different responses or experiences to therapists, hear a lot of different responses or experiences to therapists. And it’s been interesting because I’ve had some people come work with me for coaching because they’re kind of done with, like, the therapy, how some therapists might operate.

24:54
I guess you could say and so again, everyone, anyone who’s listening, all of us, we all have to determine what, what works for us. Like I do still work with a therapist. Um, that, that’s my choice. You know, I also have a mental health diagnosis of bipolar disorder. So for me I still choose to work with a therapist and for now that works Right. And so I think like we all have to decide what we’re doing. But I’m glad that you brought up kind of like the difference between a therapist or someone who is a clinician, say, versus a coach. Now I guess if someone is looking to do, say, cycle breaking work, trauma work I know you mentioned you emphasize mindset Is there anything else that should let somebody know? Like, okay, I should work with a coach versus a therapist.

25:41 – Priscilla Gutiérrez (Guest)
I would say experiment or trial and error. So I have worked with therapists, different modalities, so CBT, prolonged exposure therapy, dbt, as I mentioned, and I’m actually working with a therapist now. I started oh she’s cute, I’m like cute actually. I just started working with her in the last like maybe two weeks and so far I really like her, and I can’t say that for other therapists that I’ve had. I haven’t had the best experiences with some therapists and it’s because I didn’t know any better. I didn’t know what they were saying was inappropriate or invalidating or things like that.

26:29
I felt very much a power imbalance and so what I would say is a key not to say that all therapists are this way or all coaches are this way, but with therapy, where it’s in a clinical setting, it’s more like okay, this is, you know, I’m here to diagnose you or see if there’s any diagnosis and prescribe a treatment and then see how you follow the treatment. Where coaching is more peer support, more informal to me because I’ve also been on the receiving end of coaching it’s more. I feel like it’s a partnership, it’s more collaborative, and that’s just my experience. It’s more collaborative and that’s just my experience, and so I would say test it out. You know, many coaches and therapists offer free consultations, so it might be like a 15-minute discovery call or a 30-minute discovery call just to talk to them, tell them your goals, tell them your style of learning, your personality, what you expect, what you’re seeking and see if there’s a match. So, like this therapist that I’m seeing now, that wasn’t the first therapist that I reached out to. I met with another therapist before her and I was like I’m not feeling it, like I don’t see myself, I don’t see myself feeling super comfortable, and so trust is a big deal.

28:05
So ultimately, you are in the driver’s seat, so you are the one who selects. It’s not them picking you as a patient, it’s you picking them as a provider. So shop around, do your research and also lean into community resources. So I know I believe it’s the Open Path Collective. That’s one example of a resource to find more affordable mental health care. I think the SAMHSA, something like that. If you just Google like drug addiction, it’s usually one of the ones that pop up. But look into what’s available. Are there support groups in your area that are free? Are there other activities that maybe aren’t explicitly therapy that could also aid in your cycle breaking. So it’s not all about trauma recovery and learning about the brain and learning about your vagus nerve. It’s also finding things that bring you peace, maybe bring you structure. So signing up for a yoga class, signing up for a dance class, something that allows you to move, movement, is really good for you, and so those are some of my ideas.

29:22 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Yeah, and I mean I love that you brought up the idea of support groups and community, because you know a lot of the research with regard to healing right, and I’m I mean I’m thinking specifically with to addiction a lot of that touches on the power of community and community can look very different depending on what your interests are, what kind of communities that you’re into.

29:42
But you know, like Bessel van der Kolk talks about it in the Body Keeps the Score, like just being in sync with somebody else can make a huge difference. And you know, like his book, I love that you mentioned a dance class, because the Body Keeps the Score literally talks about things like getting into theater, getting into dance. I finished a book study for the buddy keeps the score a couple, probably like a month or two ago, and one of the students in the class decided to sign up for an acting class and like that way to get more into their body Right, like how cool is that? But yeah, I mean he totally proposes acting or theater as a form of healing for anybody who has been used to disconnecting from their body, because now you have to be fully present in order to imagine. How could you possibly convey how someone else is feeling right, and so, yeah, I think I love all those things that you said, because I think that it is okay to look for healing outside of the box, right?

30:40 – Priscilla Gutiérrez (Guest)
and it’s okay to.

30:42 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
If you, if you feel comfortable going about different strategies that don’t necessarily involve a therapist, because that’s not something you can afford, that’s not something you have access to. That’s totally fair, right, Like it’s okay to create a plan that works for you. If you’re feeling yourself moving along, if you’re feeling yourself healing, finding comfort, finding safety, if you’re noticing that your body is feeling safer more often, right, you’re definitely moving in the right direction. So I think that’s a super. Those are all super great points. So, kind of speaking of healing, right, is there a point where someone can confidently say like yep, I have broken a cycle? Or would you say that this is just kind of like a lifelong journey where you have to keep an eye out to make sure that you don’t fall back into patterns?

31:31 – Priscilla Gutiérrez (Guest)
I think and that’s a great question I think it’s possible to reach a place of comfortable remission. But me personally, I’ve been 12 and a half years sober. But I don’t say, okay, well, I guess I can go and pick up another glass of alcohol, just have a little taste and see how it goes. I know it’s still not for me, even though it’s been a long time and so. But I can also say I have broken that cycle of alcohol use disorder for sure for myself. I mean I would love to be blessed with children. I plan to educate them and set the example for them. So I feel confident that I have broken that cycle, but at the same time I don’t feel I don’t consider myself healed from like a healed person.

32:37
A healed person I see myself as continuously healing. That it’s a journey, it’s a chronic condition borderline personality disorder, chronic condition, alcohol use disorder, chronic condition. So I see these as conditions that can be treated, but not necessarily cured, but not necessarily cured. And so I think it’s important not to underestimate or to get too comfortable that you think you could never go back to some degree of where you were at. And that’s just my perspective because I know, for example, medication really helps me. But when I know like I don’t get a specific date, but at one point I was not on medication and that definitely affected me, I was like, oh, I need to be on medication and so but I got comfortable. I got comfortable thinking, oh, I’ve learned all these tools, I’ve learned all this, you know DBT and mindfulness, and it’s like, hey, but I still, I still have this treatment in place for a reason. So I would say that healing generally is not a destination. You can’t point to it on a map. It is continuous, it is a journey.

33:58 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Thank you, and I think that’s super important for folks to remember. Now I know my listeners would obviously know what alcohol use disorder is. However, we don’t often talk about specific mental health diagnoses, so would you mind sharing a little bit about what borderline personality disorder is and kind of like how it’s shown up for you?

34:17 – Priscilla Gutiérrez (Guest)
Sure so. And it’s so interesting because over the years I’ve received different diagnoses and so, depending on who you ask, I guess they have their own perspectives. They have their own perspectives. But even this therapist that I’m seeing now she was like, I mean for insurance purposes, I think you, from what I’m seeing, you know I just met you and and she, and to be fair, she’s seen a medicated version of me, a version of me that has done DBT, a more evolved version. So she said I think you have like adjustment disorder and so what she kind of said like you know, I’m going to work with you and we’ll kind of revisit this, but based on what you’ve shared with me, you know it’s trauma. You’ve been reacting to trauma throughout your life and so the diagnosis itself is not always given. Sometimes people prefer to, or providers use like complex PTSD.

35:32
I had one psychiatrist say that she doesn’t believe in personality disorders, that it’s basically bipolar disorder and just under that umbrella, and so with that said, I just wanted to throw that out there, because borderline personality disorder is not received and viewed the same way. I think across there’s not really a consensus. But as far as that and my understanding is, it happens when you experience some type of trauma and you grew up in an emotionally invalidating environment, so you didn’t really learn how to process your feelings, express your feelings, regulate your nervous system, and so it’s very dysregulated. So a lot of people that live with borderline personality disorder disorder turn to substances or eating disorders or self-harm to cope with the things that they don’t have the coping skills to cope with. And so there are, I believe, nine criteria that they have listed, and then you need at least like five to meet the diagnosis. I know some of them are. Meet the diagnosis. I know some of them are unstable relationships, impulsive bursts of anger, a very shifting sense of self, so you kind of like don’t know who you are. Some of us experience paranoia or a lot of dissociation, and so it’s definitely one of the more stigmatized disorders.

37:22
Usually, when someone says that, they often associate it with the pejorative term of crazy or like. This person cannot have a relationship. This person is like super hot and cold, super like clingy, but also like just volatile. And so what I would say is, regardless if you have a diagnosis or not, first and foremost you’re human. So even just person-centered language goes a long way. I am Priscilla. I’m a lot of things, I’m a Gemini, I’m Latina so many different things and I live with mental illness. But I am not borderline, I am not PTSD. So if you’re listening and you’re not sure, I would encourage you. A first step could be to go online and look at screen tests, but those are not diagnostic. They’re just kind of like a little step in the right direction to kind of be curious and and see okay, well, maybe this is something I should talk to a mental health provider about.

38:26 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Yeah, and you know the thing with diagnoses, that can get tricky too, it’s like and again going back off the body keeps the score. One of the biggest issues that Bessel van der Kolk would notice in his studies, especially when he was like in doing his own research early on in his career, was the fact that he would observe that, depending on what the mental health clinicians saw, that was how the diagnosis came forward. Right, so like if they saw someone who was being extremely like moody, then they would be quick to give them a bipolar label versus like that same person days later was like super sad Okay, well, maybe they’ve got clinical depression, right.

39:09
And so you know, I think also, at the end of the day, like we, as the person being diagnosed, have to accept the diagnosis, right. Like I feel like we’re just as a part of this decision-making process in a sense than like the person you know giving us the diagnosis, because a it helps for us to be really honest, you know, and really share all the things with the person making this decision, because how you’re diagnosed can really impact things like medication and treatment plans and you know, getting a bad treatment plan can really negatively impact you, like if you have medications in your body that are not serving you because they’re not treating like the right neurotransmitter, so to speak, right Like that can be an issue too. So I think that it’s just an interesting point that you made in terms of you know how diagnoses can get really complicated.

39:59 – Priscilla Gutiérrez (Guest)
Yeah for sure. And great point, I remember that part in the book where he was like, in some words, if you observe a trauma survivor, you can attach so many different labels to them. Was it defiant, behavioral or something like that defined disorder or, you know, oppositional defined disorder? I think that’s it. Um schizophrenia, just so many things. Because they just experience a traumatic event or it’s unresolved in their body, so they’re like their nervous system is completely dysregulated to the max, and so that’s true. And then also with my experience, one of the therapists diagnosed me in the first session for the first time borderline. And I mean I’ve gotten different opinions to kind of support okay, like your borderline, but that’s super inappropriate. I didn’t that. That you know. But she wasn’t wrong per se.

40:58
But you know it is a little concerning how I guess if one person says it based on what their observations are or their school of thought, that can really determine your trajectory with mental health care and a lot of it is based on self-reporting. So, like you mentioned, you know being honest, because it’s true, like I can go to an office. I’ve always been very honest just in general, but definitely with doctors, mental health providers. But I could lie, I could just lie and be like, yeah, I have great relationships or whatever the case is, and then they could be like, okay, well, that’s what you’re self-reporting. So that’s why, going back to the feedback piece, like if you have people in your life that love you, that are honest with you, like I know you have your sister Sophia, who’s been like super supportive of you Like you need people that will tell you the truth and actually like know you and have your best interests. If you are able to have that in your life, because, of course, not everyone has that support.

42:05 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Right, and you know it’s. It’s interesting to going back to the diagnosis piece, because so the context for my bipolar diagnosis. So I’m diagnosed with bipolar two. Those of you who have listened to me for a while know this. But if you’re new on this episode, bipolar two is basically the episodes of having depressive episodes without the mania, so your classic bipolar one. Those folks will experience episodes of, say, manic episodes where they might, you know, have impulsive decision-making and you know spending, um, you know risky behaviors, et cetera, while someone with bipolar two will not have that and what they’ll more realistically have are just these episodes of, like, heavy sadness.

42:51
And you know, when I got that diagnosis back in 2020, that made sense to me and but the honest truth is, I haven’t experienced an episode like that since the closest episode that I’ve had to a depressive episode was, you know, after I miscarried in January, like I felt depressed afterward. But let’s be honest, that’s grief, right, and I think that you know we live in a society where we have to normalize grieving more, so, like, yeah, I didn’t have much motivation to do anything, but you know, I just went through something really heartbreaking. So, you know, I gave myself some time and I was like, you know, if I don’t get out of this, you know sadness, I’ll, I’ll go to a psychiatrist and maybe get on meds, but you know that eventually not that it passed, but it became less heavy. But you know, I’ve been working with the same therapist now for actually over a year and she her, her issue. She’s like it doesn’t really matter what your label is at this point, cause she’s like I’m not taking medication, so the label doesn’t necessarily like matter as much, but like she actually pointed out that she thinks that I’m more of an anxious person, like, and so who knows right, because my bipolar diagnosis, also for me it came at the end of my drinking career when doctors were just trying to figure out how the hell do we get this girl to stop drinking?

44:13
So you know, I wonder if, like, so, like I’ve seen, and I have read enough to see, that alcohol can also set off certain mental health issues, like you can have episodes like psychotic breaks under the influence of alcohol or other substances, et cetera, and so I’ve read about alcohol causing some of that.

44:34
But you know, it’s funny that in like my natural human state, like really what I have are just like anxious tendencies, and so, you know, not to the point that it’s been debilitating, thankfully, but enough that my therapist has pointed that out. So I think, like, if I ever wanted to get fully reevaluated, you know we can explore that. But you know I don’t mind again, I don’t mind that my insurance gets billed under a bipolar label for my therapy sessions. Like I’m like whatever, I don’t care. But but it’s just interesting again, just going back to that, the question of the diagnosis, and it makes me wonder, like, can diagnoses change over the years and can they be just as true? It’s just because of the changes that we go through, so I don’t know food for thought.

45:21 – Priscilla Gutiérrez (Guest)
Absolutely Food for thought and I encourage everyone to get second opinions, third opinions, because ultimately you know you, I know I’m not a doctor or anything like that to diagnose myself, but at the end of the day, no one has lived my life but me and I am coherent, I am cognizant, so I can speak for myself and I know like when I think back at certain experiences I’m like who wouldn’t be emotionally dysregulated?

45:54 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
especially if they’re not medicated.

45:55 – Priscilla Gutiérrez (Guest)
They don’t have the support Like they’re, yeah, and so it’s the big, big picture stuff. So it’s definitely not just cut and dry.

46:05 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Yeah, and also it’s very big picture stuff too, because you know some more recent reads that I’ve had to like.

46:13
I’ve read some of like Dr Pooja Lakshman’s work Lakshman, I guess I said that correctly, she’s the author of Real Self Care but I’ve also read like some of her articles.

46:22
She’s done quite a bit of like writing for like the New York Times and she has like a sub stack and you know like sometimes you think you’re depressed but it’s that you don’t have money to pay your bills right, and so sometimes it’s really a result of living in the society that we live in, where there is very little access to so much for so many people, where you might be experiencing legitimate economic hardship, you might be experiencing poor access to health care, and so things are showing up as symptoms that, would you know, you open the DSM and it’s like sure you can see that right there.

46:59
But it’s not about being in the DSM, it’s that you know you are living a difficult life circumstance and now you have these symptoms coming up as a result of the difficult life circumstance, like, for example, you know I was thinking you mentioned that one of the criteria for borderline personality disorder might be having unstable relationships, and I can see that how that’s the case. Sure, like, as adults, for example, you know we we have some plenty of choice in who we maintain relationships with. But I also wonder like, let’s say, if you’re in a family where the family itself is just like not healthy for whatever reasons, right, like, how much is that really you and how much is that like just the environment that you happen to come into right?

47:47 – Priscilla Gutiérrez (Guest)
Yeah, like you said, it’s not always or just what’s happening like brain chemistry. It can be situational circumstances, it can be what was modeled for you in the home. That could be your norm. I know, when I left for college I was like, oh, I can see differences in other families and how or how other people kind of communicate and things like that. And so yeah, great, yeah, great, great point. It’s more holistic, more a lot of different factors.

48:19 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
For sure. But anyway, as we get to the end of our time, I would love for you to share with folks if you are currently taking clients. If so, like what offerings do you have? So yeah, tell us a little bit about how folks can contact you or work with you or follow you.

48:38 – Priscilla Gutiérrez (Guest)
Of course, and excuse me. Thank you again, jessica, for having me on and allowing me the space to talk about my experiences and the coaching I offer. So I have cycle breaker coaching. It’s a container, it’s three months, but I want someone who is listening to this to let’s talk first, because I recognize three months. Basically, the package that I have is, like you know, 12 one hour sessions over three months and all these other different additives that come with it, but that is a suggested starting point, and so I am accepting new clients. I really love my clients. I’m really blessed to be in this position to support people with some real life situations, real life changes, mindset shifts. You can learn more about the coaching that I offer on my website, which is priscillamariacom, and also my Instagram and my LinkedIn are both at cyclebreakercoach, so feel free to connect with me, reach out, say hello. I’m here to answer any additional questions that you have about what we talked about or anything you might be curious about.

50:00 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Awesome. Well, priscilla, yes, thank you so much for sharing, for joining and for just sharing your experiences with cycle breaking. I think that you know, again for anyone listening, if you’re feeling stuck, recognize that you are you’re feeling stuck, recognize that you are. You’re not alone. Right Again, like an object in motion tends to want to stay in motion. Right, it’s basic physics and it’s basic human patterns to feel stuck and like not really feel ease. You know, when trying to break from a pattern, whether it’s your addiction to something probably alcohol, if you’re listening to this, or just just any other behaviors that you’re dealing with, and so definitely don’t hesitate to reach out to Priscilla to explore any of this work as well. So, thank you all so much for listening. Thank you, priscilla, for being here. I will catch you all on the next one.

Return to Podcast Directory

Link to Spotify

In this episode:

There’s a profound mix of beauty and pain in the narrative of my family, from my grandmother’s sacrifices of selling lottery tickets to avoid returning to an abuser’s home to the cultural tradition of silence that influenced my own journey in mental health. Honoring the choices of our women before me and discerning what to carry forward, this episode extends a heartfelt message of love and well-being to all who listen, and sets the stage for an insightful exploration of the book “It Didn’t Start With You,” for those eager to understand the profound impact of intergenerational trauma on our lives.

Resources:

Six-Week Writing to Heal Program – Starts June 3rd!

Book Study: It Didn’t Start With You by Mark Wolynn

Transcript:

00:02 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Hey y’all, it is Mother’s Day in the US, which means it is a hard day for a whole lot of people on this planet. And this episode is just me talking my randomness per usual. But I wanted to share a little bit of what I do know of my grandmother’s slash mother’s story, because what mother’s day is a really complicated holiday for me too. Um. So first I’ll give heads up in terms of listening to this episode, that there will be talk of intimate partner violence and there will be talk of pregnancy loss and, obviously, by nature of this show, addiction. But I did want to kind of give you that heads up on some of the topics that are going to come up with regard to today’s recording. But today I’m choosing to practice gratitude that is wrapped up in the belief and the reminder that multiple things can be true at one time. Right. And so in this recovery journey, I’ve learned that there can be a lot of beauty and I’ve learned that there can be a lot of pain, and I’ve learned that nothing is just good and nothing is just bad. Right, like, life is not that simple. Things are not black or white. So I really want to kind of focus on that energy today as I tell a little bit of the story of, again, what I know of my grandmother’s story, how it connects to my mother’s story and then my own, because again, there’s a lot that I’ve learned, there’s a lot that’s been passed down.

01:30
I have a book study coming up in June for the book. It Didn’t Start With you, right, and this is a testament to that. It didn’t start with you, it didn’t start with me. If you want to sign up for that book study, check it out on bottomlistsobercom. But again, here is just a little bit of my story, well, really my grandma’s story, just to give a sense of where all the years of me having my addiction be kept like a secret came from.

01:58
So my grandmother her name was Sofia, sofia Vargas, if you notice. Well, sofia Rojas Vargas. If you notice my sister’s namejas Vargas, if you notice, my sister’s name is also Sophia. So Sophia is a popular name in my family thanks to my grandmother, and my grandmother was actually born like way back 1902. And, to give you context, I’m 39 years old, so I’m talking about a grandmother that was born in 1902, but my grandmother had my mom late. My mom is one of, like her, last kids and then I’m my mom’s last kid and my mom, you know, she was 45 when I was born. So yeah, like there’s a huge age gap between, like I don’t even know how old my grandmother was when I was born. Just to give you context, or like if I were to have a child, you know my mom is already 85 years old. So we just have big age gaps in this family.

02:42
So, anyway, my grandmother was born in Nicaragua and the year was probably about 1916. But there was a Costa Rican man who went into Nicaragua and he basically charmed her, romanced her and pulled her away from the safety net of her family, right, so her family of origin was erased and taken out of the picture. At this point, when he brings her to the Costa Rican border, he lies to border officials there and says that this is his daughter and of course, again, we’re talking 1916. They’re not like scanning passports to check and verify papers, right, like they basically just have to take you for whatever you say. And it’s my understanding that my grandmother’s husband was also pretty wealthy. So you know, and of course, in the colorist world of my family’s nature, you know, my mom often tells a story about how he had blue eyes, like that was supposed to be, some like winning special feature, like he was an abusive asshole, but he had blue eyes. When I say two things can be true, that’s not the type of two things that can be true that I care to talk about, but just pointing that out. So he takes her, moves her into Costa Rica, marries her when she’s a teenager again about 14, 15, at most 16 years old and very quickly, from what I understand, the whole situation changes, right. So he may have been charming when he appeared in Nicaragua, but in Costa Rica that totally changed. And so he did become abusive, physically abusive and verbally abusive towards my grandmother, and she was so young and she didn’t have any way to reach out back to her family to get help. She was already married off. They were in different countries.

04:23
And to kind of give you a sense of where the world was right, like if we’re talking about the years like 1916 to 1920-ish that time period, let’s remember that the world was in World War I let’s remember that in the United States women didn’t even have the right to vote. So what do you think a woman in Latin America was going to have the right to do, right? So just to give you some context there, at this time period again, women in the United States couldn’t even get a credit card without their husband until the 1970s. So to give you context in terms of where things were in Latin America also, costa Rica to this day is officially a Catholic nation, which means that there’s limited I mean there is access to birth control now. Back then there wasn’t. And also things like abortion not happening legally then, not happening legally now. So again, women’s rights basically don’t exist at this time.

05:16
So if you are being abused by your spouse, not much is happening for you in terms of protection and so, honestly, what is the easiest way to get through it? It’s to be quiet, right, cross your fingers and hope the period passes and that you survive, right? The only time that my grandmother got breaks from this abuse was when she was pregnant, and again she got pregnant quite a bit and pretty quickly. She was young. There was no access to birth control, so she had I want to say it was about four kids three kids in four years. She gave birth, three kids in four years, um, and so again, every time that she was pregnant she had the sense of safety of oh, he’s not hitting me right now, but even then it’s like you know, if he put his hand to caress her, you know there’s that immediate, like jarring reaction, because you are so used to being hit by someone that you know when you suddenly see that hand come out at you you’re going to flinch. And so that was her experience. Now, by the time she had her third child, which is my Tio Carlos, he was a baby, she, and she, for whatever reason, finally was growing sick of this. Right, like you, can only take so much after a while.

06:34
My grandfather would have a habit of going to the local taverna, which is a bar. Basically it would be a Friday night routine. Him all the other like husbands in the neighborhood would just go and get drunk and probably go home, and I don’t want to say that all of them would go home and beat their wives. But he did right. And so you know there was just this pattern of the kids would go to bed, hide hope it wasn’t them, because it was basically whoever was up and around when he got home. They were going to get it, and so typically it was her. The kids were already asleep and there’s just this one point that my mom says that my grandmother just got sick of it and over it, and she was just like I don’t know what the hell I’m going to do, like I might go and starve, I might have to be out on the streets, but anything is better than than this. Right, and again, she had a baby with her, an infant.

07:25
And so it was one Friday, right before he went to go to the bar, to the taverna, that my grandmother approached him, and this was the first time she ever spoke up for herself. And she was like you can go drink, but me and the kids we’re not going to be here when you get back. And so, from what I’ve gathered, his response was like really Like you think you’re going to leave me. You know, he wanted to point out that he had money. He wanted to point out that he had money. He wanted to point out that she had all these kids, right, what was she going to do? He basically said that she was going to have to go be a puta in the streets Puta means prostitute that she was going to have to go prostitute herself. And he was like you’re trying to avoid my hands, but imagine all the other men’s hands that are going to come across you now that you’re putting yourself in this vulnerable situation, and then he’s like you’re going to be back here before you know it, like you have no money, you have nothing. You know again, she’s a woman with little rights. So he was very confident that she was going to come back and she, just she left To fast forward a little bit. She never went back.

08:31
Yes, they absolutely lived with massive economic insecurity, and so from that time period again, my mom wasn’t born yet, my mom didn’t come till 1939. And basically what my grandmother did? She just started selling lottery tickets and so she would move from city to city, province to province with all her kids. As the kids got old enough, my mother’s big sister, marujenia, she became in charge of, just like taking care of them. So my grandmother would leave, leave all the kids with the biggest sister, and she would go work and then bring money back to wherever they were living. So again, they lived in all different parts of Costa Rica. My mom remembers there were times that there was just one bed for multiple kids and that was how they lived and they didn’t know where their next meal was coming from. There was no such thing as government assistance. I mean, there still really isn’t any such thing as government assistance in Costa Rica. There’s nationalized healthcare but not like nationalized access to food. You know there’s not nationalized access to shelter if you are a woman or a survivor of intimate partner violence.

09:37
And so my grandmother, from my grandmother, my mom, did learn to not take physical abuse from men, and so my mom very proudly talks about how she would never let as my mom would say, she’ll never let any son of a bitch hit her. So my mom definitely learned that. But the other thing that she learned from my grandma again was this we just stay quiet and keep moving forward. We stay quiet and we move forward. We stay quiet and we work hard. We hustle hard, but we stay quiet. Right, it had to have been incredibly difficult for my grandmother to have kids and more kids, like as she’s sick, maybe had a romance right and then got pregnant and she had to have the kid Right. There’s probably a lot of mental anguish there with the food insecurity and the insecurity of not having a steady home or place to live, but we don’t know that. That’s never been documented, that’s never been verbally said. I’m just making these assumptions because I’m like shit. If I had multiple kids and I didn’t have a place to live, I would be freaking out personally, right.

10:52
And so what I do know, from lack of it being stated, is that my grandmother didn’t talk about anything emotional. She didn’t have anybody to confide in in terms of, you know, her worries and her stress, and so my mom absolutely carried that with her, especially when she came to the United States. I absolutely carried that with her, especially when she came to the United States. By the time my mom came to the United States, typically in these stores called botanicas, which is eventually the type of store that my parents established. So in this botanica, right again, my mom was just by herself in this country. She was staying with her older sister, not the one that took care of them, but a different older sister. Again, there was a lot of them, sister, not the one that took care of them, but a different older sister. Again, there was a lot of them. And, um, you know, no matter what, my mom never talked about anything, right. And so I remember, as time passed and I was eventually born, the only time that I ever heard my mother cry was when my grandmother died, and that was when I was about five years old, so before that, after that, I really never saw my mother crying. She never, ever talked about emotions.

12:21
Now again, putting it in context, this makes sense If you are an immigrant in a country that typically does not like immigrants, right, if you are not here legally, you don’t necessarily need to be talking about your struggles and then trying to seek help. Because where was she going to seek the help from? Right, like, let’s be honest, there really was nowhere for my mother to go in terms of, like letting out her pain. Right when my mother and my father were together in the younger parts of their relationship, there were definitely things that my father did that were not far from angelic behavior. And though my father never laid his hands on my mom, right, like, he definitely had his little good times quote unquote and would sometimes leave on a Friday and not come back till Sunday. Did my mother ever speak up or complain about that to him? No, she didn’t, because she knew that to cause an uproar with my dad would have left her with no place to go Right, and by that time she had already had my sister. So I say this to recognize that the silence that my grandmother had the silence that my mother had. They had functions at that time. Right, staying quiet guaranteed them a place to live. Staying quiet guaranteed my mother access to the United States. Right, staying quiet for my grandmother probably reduced the amount of beatings that she got from her ex-husband. Right, and in my mom’s case, again, staying quiet just gave her shelter, food and a partner at a time when she needed that kind of support.

14:00
So by the time I’m born in the mid 1980s here I am right, at that point my dad had settled down because he was already an older man. I mean, my mom was 45 when I was born, so my dad was 57. So I mean, at that age, you know, he’s slowing down, so he’s not really going out and partying. Being Mr Good time, being Mr Flirt, being Mr Womanizer, like those days are done for him. But right, we still didn’t talk about feelings.

14:27
And so for me, I very vividly remember my memories, like if I were to cry as a child you know in Spanish being told you know, stop crying or I’ll give you something to cry about. Right, and I’m sure many of you listening to this can probably resonate with this, regardless of what your family’s culture is. But that whole stop crying or I’ll give you something to cry about that very quickly told me to try to stuff my feelings in, yeah, or you know, for me, right, food was my first source of comfort when, say, my mother wasn’t the most nurturing person, right, and so I learned, well, if I couldn’t talk about things, I could eat, right, and so those were some of the things that started happening with me. I remember vividly as a teen. And here’s the thing teens’ dopamine levels are like very low. So I understand this now.

15:15
But you know, teenagers, teenagers, boredom is like a death sentence to a teenager, and I mean, I know this from being a teacher, but there’s like actual science behind this. Like dopamine levels are lower in teenagers. So when they are bored, it’s like incredibly painful for them, like it’s just like hell on earth. And so think about it, like when you first get sober, if you experienced anhedonia, I feel like that’s probably what it’s like to be a teenager who is bored, and that would happen to me. And when I got bored like that, I would actually start crying.

15:46
And you know my parents would be like what the hell are you crying about? And they couldn’t connect my sadness or my feelings. They couldn’t make sense of them, not connect to them. But they couldn’t make sense of it because for them I mean, my father was a Cuban refugee and my mother, again, like she was a kid, going from home to home, city to city, sharing a bed with multiple siblings, right, and to them they’re like, what the hell are you sad about? Like you have a stable house, you have your own bedroom, you have food, you have clothes, you don’t lack for anything. Why are you crying? Right, Like that was basically what my parents were like. Their minds were boggled with. Like why the hell are you crying?

16:25
And so, again, I was taught to just keep the feelings to myself, like all right, well, if I’m crying, if I’m letting this stuff out and my parents say this to me, then maybe I need to just be quiet. But here’s the thing when I started to drink and the drinking became problematic, I didn’t have anywhere to go. I didn’t think that I did, because I believed that I was just supposed to keep everything quiet into myself. And here’s the thing I needed to differentiate my situation from the situation that my mother was in to the situation that my grandmother was in, because I was born here in the US. I’m an American citizen. By the time my drinking had become a problem, I was also a teacher with benefits, so I easily could have gone to the doctor. I easily could have gone to a therapist. There are lots of resources at my disposal that I just simply didn’t feel safe going to because of the fact that I thought I had to keep things quiet. Right Again, alcohol abuse and drug abuse in my family is nothing new.

17:29
There’s lots of family members that I have seen with issues with alcohol or drug use, but nobody talks about it Not in depth. At most they’re just called un borracho. They’re depth. At most they’re just called, you know, they’re called drunk or they’re called lazy bagel and that’s that. But there’s no conversation about, yeah, like what, what could have caused this? How, how could we get this person help? There’s just the labeling of the person and the accepting that they are how they are and there’s like no hope for them, right? So again, I didn’t want to talk and then be labeled in that manner, right?

17:59
But the game changer for me was when I finally realized that the silence was deadly, when I realized that the silence was suffocating me and that I needed to speak, that I needed to open my mouth in order to save my life, because recovering from addiction you don’t do it alone. It’s very hard to recover by yourself. Right and again, if I looked at my life in context for me to speak, no one was going to physically come and hurt me for openly stating that I was struggling with an addiction to alcohol. But I I didn’t understand that, I just knew that I had to be quiet. So once I finally started opening my mouth, right when I finally quit drinking, that made a huge difference, because then I became willing to do whatever I needed to do in order to get sober. If I was willing to say I am struggling with this to a doctor, then I can get access to medical treatment right. If I was willing to say I am struggling with this to a doctor, then I can get access to medical treatment right. If I am willing to say to other human beings this is my struggle, then I have the opportunity to connect with other human beings and get that emotional support and not feel alone and not feel isolated and break down the shame that comes with years of addiction. Break down the shame that comes with years of addiction.

19:21
But I had to be willing to break the cycles that I was in from my family. I had to be able to look at this trait that I had inherited right, this silence that I had inherited, and be like does this still serve me or is this something that I can let go of? Silence absolutely served my grandmother. It absolutely served my mother. It protected them, it kept them alive, but it wasn’t doing the same thing for me, and once I recognized that, that gave me the opportunity to stop and make a change.

19:50
So, with that, on this Mother’s Day, I am incredibly grateful for everything my grandmother did to survive, for everything that my mother did to protect herself, and I’m also grateful that I am finding what I need to do to survive and that I am finding what I need to do to protect myself, and it doesn’t look the same as what they did. And future generations, hopefully, they will recognize that to always look at what you got from the people before you and practice the freedom of choice. Does this serve me or can I let this go? And if you can let it go, let it go. So, with that, thank you all for listening, wishing you a blessed day, sending you all the love in the world. Thanks so much.

Return to Podcast Directory

Link to Spotify

In this episode:

Join me as I candidly share personal experiences, answering powerful questions from a recent Q&A that touch on self-confidence, sobriety, moderation, and the complexities of dating without the influence of substances. It is a conversation that celebrates the small yet significant choices that forge the path to reclaiming not just sobriety, but also the self-esteem that addiction often corrodes.

Resources:

Six-Week Writing to Heal Program – Starts June 3rd!

Book Study: It Didn’t Start With You by Mark Wolynn

Ngl Link – Get folks to ask you questions anonymously.

Transcript:

Hey everyone, for today’s episode, I wanted to share some of the questions that I got asked at a Q&A that I had recently on Instagram. I thought the questions were really powerful questions that would be helpful for anybody listening to the podcast as well. So I’m going to go ahead and go through those questions and just talk about them, because I think that asking questions and feeling safe to ask questions is so important. So if you ever have a random question, please don’t hesitate to reach out to me by email. You can find my email on my website, bottomlesstosober.com, but my email

01:17
So, with that being said, the questions were basically kind of, I would say, in four different topics. So we had relationship to self, sobriety, marijuana and moderation. I had some questions about dating and then also about being in recovery in the workplace, right. So the first question relating to relationship to self I was asked or this was the person’s question. This was also, by the way, anonymous. So there’s a really cool link and I’ll share it in the show notes where you can ask people to ask you questions anonymously.

01:52
So this first question was I have zero confidence in self-trust. How do you have it Right? And wow, what a great question. But I’ll be very honest, I had no confidence to begin with either, and there’s still times today where I have to kind of like remind myself of who the hell I am. You know what I mean, because it’s very easy to slip into old patterns of questioning myself, doubting myself, thinking that I’m not good enough. You know, these are things, these are thoughts that I would say have been core beliefs for me, and so I’ve had to do a lot of intentional work to counter them.

02:30
You know things that help usually, when you stop drinking, you have very low self-esteem because of the fact that you have been living a life of addiction. So you’re probably doing a shit ton of things that you are not proud of, and that is okay. Right, that is the nature of addiction. You’re going to do things that don’t make sense. You’re going to displease yourself, displease your family, right? You’re not like. You’re not like on top of the world by the time that you decide that you need to change your relationship with alcohol and other drugs, right, like, let’s be honest. So it’s totally fair that you don’t even trust yourself, because you’re like, if all of my decisions were fueled by this addiction, how the hell am I going to make a good decision? Right, it makes total sense, I hear you. And so what helped me to build some confidence was doing little things every day that I knew that I could accomplish. Right, Again, being addicted will have you convinced that you cannot make a single good decision, because you don’t make good decisions when you’re under the influence.

03:30
Right, you don’t make good decisions under a life of addiction. But the first solid decision that you can use as evidence to start building that self-trust with yourself is the decision to change your life. Maybe you’re not totally sober yet, right, like, you might be listening to this episode and you’re, you know might be on, like your 10th of day, one which I hear you, I used to have many day ones. I always tell people I decided to stop drinking in September of 2019. And my last drink was November of 2020. That’s 14 months of trying to stop. So if any of you are sitting there like, oh my gosh, you know, I don’t know if I’m going to stop you will, you just have to keep going. If the second you stop trying, you’re done. But if you keep trying at some point, this is going to stick right.

04:13
So the first solid decision that you can lean on as evidence of I so-and-so can make good choices is the choice to start to make your life better. So if you’re ever doubting yourself, lean on that. And then any little day that you can add onto that day, that is evidence of good decision-making. The decision to go to eat some ice cream as opposed to drive into the liquor store that is evidence of good decision-making. The decision to get on a meeting and listen as opposed to go drink some wine that is evidence of good decision-making. So, literally, look at your daily choices, your hourly choices, and that is where you will find the evidence that you can make good decisions, and that is, little by little, how you build confidence and trust in yourself. It does not happen overnight, and if you struggle to identify this for yourself, find someone who’s going to help you do it. Does that mean you need a therapist? Does that mean you need a coach? Does that just mean you need a good friend? Whatever you need, go find it If you can’t generate these ideas for yourself. But you should not be sitting there thinking that you are this living being that cannot make a single good choice, because that is not true. There’s absolutely counter evidence to that.

05:34
So, moving on to the next question, which so now I’m kind of moving into topics of sobriety, marijuana and moderation. So this next question that I was asked was what would you say to people who can’t imagine living in the world without numbing with some sort of substance? What did you do? What do you do now? To be in the place that you’re in? It just sounds impossible, honestly, and I don’t think about living in the world forever without some sort of substance. I just have to get through today, and when I was early on in my journey, that was literally all that I needed to worry about. I just needed to make a plan between now and going to bed so that I didn’t have to numb.

06:22
I also wanna recognize that numbing takes many shapes and forms. So again, if you found me, if you’re listening to this, chances are that your version of numbing involves alcohol, maybe other substances, right, but I wanna recognize that, like people numb with food, people numb with shopping, people numb with sex, people numb with, like, serial dating, people numb with the internet, right, there’s lots of ways to numb. But since this question is with regard to a specific substance, right, I just tell myself I just had to get through today. I cannot tell myself I’ll never numb myself again and I still don’t play around with the nevers. It’s just not my thing. I don’t like putting the word never in my vocabulary.

07:04
I don’t think that I am this higher power that can determine outcomes. I don’t determine outcomes, I just put in my best effort on a daily basis, right, the outcomes are not up to me. So, even with sobriety, I just say I just need to not do this today, and I know that that might not be the most exciting response to that question. But if I start to think about the future, that’s not even here, right, because for some of you who are worried about oh my gosh, what if I never drink again? Let’s be honest you don’t know what the future holds. We don’t know if we’re going to be here tomorrow. So, rather than taking our energy and stressing about a tomorrow that might not come because we don’t know what the future holds, let’s just keep it simple and let’s just worry about today. That is the treasure that you have today. Tomorrow, we don’t even know what’s going to happen. I don’t know what’s going to happen. And then every day, the days add up, the time passes. Also, I’m going to be honest Earlier on, there was no way that I was going to and this is my personal experience and not medical advice but earlier on, there was no way that I was going to get through my early sobriety without the assistance of a psychiatrist and medication.

08:20
I had been living my life with no clue that I had bipolar two disorder. So to go from self-medicating with alcohol forever to suddenly not having it and not yet having been taught coping skills to deal with my emotions and just kind of like out there, like raw dogging life no way, I was not going to do that without medication. So I want to recognize that also, I had tools, and so for those of you who might need to explore your toolbox, this is a great opportunity. Do I need to see a physician? Do I need to see a psychiatrist who knows a little bit about addiction and how to treat it? Right? That was fueling my drinking or other drug use, right? These are really important questions to ask yourself.

09:07
So, if you have stopped and the world feels like this absolutely intolerable place to be I want to share you don’t have to sit in intolerable feelings. You shouldn’t be suffering for the sake of getting sober, and so don’t hesitate, talk to a physician. I did, and it completely changed my life. Eventually, I learned how to use coping skills. Eventually, I learned how to regulate my body. So I don’t take medications anymore, and I’m not saying that’s going to be your story necessarily, but what I’m saying is that if you break your leg, you’re going to need a cast, and you’re going to be your story necessarily. But what I’m saying is that if you break your leg, you’re going to need a cast and you’re going to need some crutches, and then eventually, those can sometimes come off. Typically they do Right. So, likewise, if you need something to assist you through this early period. There’s no shame in that. Like I said, I openly talk about the fact that I use meds all the time. No shame, no problem with it. Wouldn’t have done it any other way.

10:09
So the next question what are your thoughts on marijuana? Are people in alcohol recovery okay with others using marijuana? So how other people recover really is not my business, and I hope that you surround yourself with people who also aren’t trying to tell you how to recover. Everybody has to find their own right way to recover, right? With that being said, I will not use marijuana. I will not use other mind altering substances.

10:39
But again, I just finished saying that I was using psych meds to help me with getting sober in the beginning. So who the hell am I to say that my chemical is better than yours? Right, like, I chose my substance to help me get off of alcohol. For some people, they do use marijuana to help them stop drinking. That’s, that’s on them. You have to make whatever choice. You are going to sleep well at night with, right so like. If you go to bed every night and you sleep like a baby, knowing that THC is helping you quit drinking and that works for you, go for it. Right, that was me with my psych meds. I was so grateful to have these tools to help me stay sober.

11:19
Now are there some people who are going to be judgmental? Yes, so, with that being said, understand that whatever decision that you make A it’s your business, but, b when you put it out there, believe me that people are going to chime in with their opinions, right? So you’ve got to recognize that, if you’re going to talk openly about, say, using THC as a part of your alcohol recovery journey, be confident in your decision, because I promise you, someone is going to talk shit about you. That’s all I’m going to say, right? So when you make these decisions, be mindful of what are you keeping private. What is between you and your physician, right? So when you make these decisions, be mindful of what are you keeping private? What is between you and your physician, right? What is between you and your therapist? What is between you and your coach? And then, what are you sharing with others openly? Because, again, people like to be judgmental. People are humans. We’re flawed. We are flawed, beautiful creatures. So just know that there’ll probably be some smoke if you no pun intended. I seriously didn’t mean to say that, but there will be comments made if that is a part of your recovery journey.

12:25
But again, like we anybody who’s been addicted to alcohol and is working on quitting we’re just trying to get to experience this life and be freaking, happy, right and free from that addiction. Again, it is not a part of my. I used it briefly in my time of active addiction. Wasn’t for me, so definitely I had zero interest in using it in recovery Again. I just stuck with a plain old, plain old prescriptions with the doctor and that worked for me. But great, great question. So kind of feeding off of that.

13:01
The next question I got was what are your thoughts on moderation? And I’ll tell you straight up like moderation is not for me, absolutely not. Moderation is a nightmare. The few times that I tried it was because I was in denial about my addiction to alcohol and I thought that if I could control it, that I could somehow prove to myself that I didn’t really have a problem and I would only try and do it, just to end up crashing and burning, crashing and burning. So no, thank you, not my interest.

13:34
I would rather just not drink, and I mean I even remember when I was in my active addiction. Right. If I would go to a happy hour, say, with my colleagues, I wouldn’t even drink, because you know they’re all sitting there and they’re nursing their one drink because they just drink like people without addictions. So they just have the one that they sit for like an hour and I knew that I would just want to scarf mine down. So I would rather drink nothing than have one drink. And you know there’s in 12 step spaces.

14:03
I’ve heard the saying it’s one is too many and a thousand is never enough. And let me tell you that that is such truth right there. Like AA is not my thing. I’m not a fan of 12-step programs. For myself they do great for other people it’s just not my thing. But man, if you ever had a more powerful saying that one right there, is it right. So no, thank you.

14:27
And here’s the thing I didn’t drink for the taste, right Like I drank to obliterate my consciousness. And so you know, like one of the funny things that I see, or like my reaction say to how nowadays, you know, like mocktails are so popular and people love their alcohol-free wines, I don’t want any of that shit, to be honest, because I never liked, I never cared how alcohol tasted anyway. So you know, I’m the sober person that just drinks a lot of water and coffee because I don’t really care for mocktails. I never, I never, wanted something that tasted good and yummy. I just wanted to, like you know, stop existing mentally for for a while, for the rest of the day. So, yeah, I, moderation is a big no for me.

15:16
I have seen, you know, I used to work at the reframe app, and the reframe app is a community that offers an alcohol-free version and then like an alcohol-free track and then a moderation track, and I have seen people who have successfully moderated. With that said, I don’t know what it’s like to walk in their shoes and I don’t know if they’re like white knuckling it to just keep it to the one to two drinks. Or, you know, if you are successfully moderating, were you really addicted in the first place, right? Those are great questions to explore that I don’t have time to have a conversation about, but food for thought. If you hear of people who say that they decided to change their relationship with alcohol and they’re now moderating, I want you to consider that maybe the extent of their problems with alcohol may not be as extreme as yours, right, and so recognizing that, again, everyone walks their own path and how other people recover is their business, not our business. So again, if that works for them, great. But again, this question was asked to me. So no, I will not moderate and I will not consider it. It is not an option, it sounds like hell. So no, thank you, all right.

16:23
Next question oh wait, sorry, and I had another thought too, on the moderation part. If you are genuinely addicted to alcohol, right, and you keep trying to moderate because you realize, like if you don’t drink anything you feel like you’re dying, call a doctor. Alcohol withdrawal is actually incredibly dangerous and it can be deadly. I’m not playing around like, look it up on Google. And so if you are having these very wild symptoms, like if you’re feeling like your heart is palpitating and you are shaking uncontrollably and like your stomach is turning into this knot, that cannot undo itself, please, please, please call a doctor. If you’re not even sure, just call a doctor. It is much better to withdraw from alcohol safely and under medical supervision than to try to do this on your own and potentially risk hurt. Again, not medical advice, but I am telling you to get in touch with a medical professional.

17:24
Anyway, the next question that I got was about dating and it was where did you go to meet people and did you only look for sober people? So I met my current partner on Bumble. So, yay, go Bumble, and we’re, I guess, a solid year and a half in moving into two years soon. I was not about going outside and trying to meet people. I’m just going to be honest, like I mean, yes, I go outside and say to the salsa events, but that’s actually not where I would want to meet like my future partner at. So that’s, that’s that. I was just like no, I will meet people online because I’m not going out to meet people and I work on a college campus, so most people are either way younger than me or they are already like married, et cetera, and I and actually I met my partner before this job. So I’m digressing, but anyway. So I use Bumble.

18:20
And when I first started dating, about a year after I got sober, I’ll tell you how my mindset about dating shifted too. So initially I was like I’m not dating anybody who’s in recovery, because I was like the only person who I’m trusting is me. But again, if you all know my story right, like I had a partner who passed away from his own addiction as a direct cause of his addiction. So in my mind I was like hell, no, I’m not subjecting myself to that shit again. And I was like I will not date anybody who’s in recovery. I will only date somebody who has like no addiction history, right and um.

18:57
So then as I dated people, you know, I found a lot of people who do consume substances, but pretty much most of them are balanced, et cetera. Like maybe a drink here on occasion. Um, I went out briefly, like on a couple of dates, with somebody who smoked a lot of marijuana and I was like, no, like this really is your life Like that. That’s not going to work for me. Um, but I eventually landed with my partner and my partner pretty much is a non-drinker. You know, again, we’ve been together a year and a half, knocking on two years, and literally I have seen him consume two drinks this entire time and they were like little, not mocktails, they were cocktails, like when we were like once on vacation and once on his birthday, and like that was it. And you know, I was like why don’t you want to have more? Once on vacation and once on his birthday and like that was it. And you know, I was like why don’t you want to have more? And he’s like I don’t like how that makes me feel Hilarious, right, and what a novelty. But anyway, yeah, I I, by the time I met my partner, I will be honest, I was more open to meeting someone in recovery, but I feel like I would have to feel that they were very steady in their, in their program and whatever program they were doing for themselves in terms of, like their self-care, their community, like are they actively engaged in community, et cetera.

20:10
But I ended up not with another person in recovery and that works just fine with me. And the reason, like I said, that initially I was sort of anti-dating people in recovery was because I was afraid of someone else relapsing. You know I had seen how much I relapsed and then I had my partner who relapsed and passed away. So I was like, oh hell, no, these relapses, they’re guaranteed. I’m not dealing with someone else’s relapse Now. I don’t feel that same way. I have enough evidence to counter that belief. I know enough people in long-term recovery to know that people really can, you know, recover and stay away despite like life doing the most horrid things to them. So you know, if I ever were single again, I would be open to dating someone in recovery, but they would definitely have to be like a solid, steady person, definitely not someone in early recovery. Hell to the no.

21:00
If you are in early recovery, run from relationships, just run. Or you can read my story and learn from my experience. Don’t date in early recovery. That’s my personal tidbit. Again, life will teach you Otherwise. If you don’t want to follow my suggestion, you go for it and you’ll see what life will teach you.

21:29
But anyway, my next question that I got pretty similar. Just, this person was worried that they’ll never be in a relationship with a person who’s in recovery because of their own experience. But then they also worry that they can’t have an intimate experience with a normie, a person without an addiction, because they could never understand. And again, I pretty much addressed a lot of this. But I do want to say if you are entering the dating arena and you are in recovery and you’re kind of like, I don’t really want to date another person in recovery, I just want to share, it is your right to date whoever the hell you want to date, right Like you, don’t owe the recovery community anything by dating only within the recovery community, right? Like there’s no obligation, there’s no contract that you signed upon getting sober where you have to be with other sober people. Be with who you want to be, period, that’s it right. And give yourself permission to change your mind also Right. So if you want to go in with kind of like a specific mindset, just give yourself permission to change your mind, that’s all right.

22:29
Again, if you date someone in early recovery and like you’re in early recovery and they’re in early recovery, it’s a recipe for disaster. I promise you that. That is all I will say. It’s not, it is. There’s so much that can go wrong and I would hope that things go right for you and I would love to be proven wrong. If you’re listening to this and you have some opposite evidence to show me, please do. Please counter my belief, because my belief is pretty set in stone that two people in early recovery don’t usually have a great start. I know eventually things can change for them. But yeah, feel free to send me an email and counter my belief with your beautiful story. I might even want to have you as a guest on the podcast, right? So feel free to counter my belief.

23:14
But, moving on, I have last two questions and they’re both related to recovery in the workplace. So the first one is does it make you nervous to talk about addiction so openly while being in education? Because, again, my day job, right, I work at a university with college students, very closely with them, and the answer to that is I’m not nervous about it at all, right, when I interviewed for my current role, I was asked my why, why are you applying to work here? And I literally opened with the fact that I’m in recovery. My drinking started in college and I want to work with college students to make an impact where I didn’t have that adult who was openly out in recovery. That’s that I would hope that any educational space would see me as an asset. However, if someone, if a hiring, if an HR department, were to look at me and then Google me and see all that I do and be like, oh no, we can’t have her here, then fine, right, Like, if an employer hires me, they hire all parts of me. If they want to hire me and then expect me to like not talk about sobriety, not talk about recovery, et cetera, then I don’t want to work there anyway. So I do speak openly because I do want to repel the people that don’t need to be around me and I want to bring in and attract the people who want this kind of energy. So if an employer, if a university is like, oh no, no, we can’t hire her, bye, that’s fine, I don’t need to work with you anyway.

24:44
And then my last question was would I ever go back to the classroom like a K through 12 classroom, because I used to be a middle school teacher. So to be clear, right, I am in education, but at the collegiate level. But no, I would absolutely not go back to K through 12 teaching, not at this point. I would say I did good work. I taught in public schools for 13 years, busted my tail, I did damn good work and there’s nothing left for me to prove by going back Like I’m good, I’m done. You know that was when the worst of my drinking happened and that’s when some of the best work that I ever did happen as well. And I don’t need to rewrite that narrative there. I’m good.

25:28
I also think, like you know, I live in Florida and there’s so much at risk for just opening your mouth and speaking some truth here, where I would not last like probably a couple of weeks in a in a Florida classroom. But even in Kentucky, where I used to teach, or New York, I just I don’t have an interest in going back into a profession specifically K through 12 teaching where teachers are villainized so much. Now I don’t have that battle in me. You know like I would go back if I wanted to go back in and be like fighting for change and affecting change and things like that. But you know, one of the biggest things that has helped me with staying sober is realizing that a lot of the system is fucked up and it not that it’s just me, like a thousand me’s can make a difference, but I have to also really be careful with my energy. You know what I mean and I know that there are a lot of people who are mobilizing and fighting good fights and the way in which I’m supporting those good fights today might look like donating money as opposed to showing up physically and fighting those fights. I feel like if I were in a public school setting, I would probably be wanting to show up physically to fight these fights, right, and I don’t have that in me anymore and I recognize that I used to like in 2018, 2017, even 2019, like I absolutely was a teacher helping mobilize and like run protests up on the state Capitol and all this stuff, and I don’t have that in me anymore. So, no, I know, I know what my limits are and that is not it.

27:10
So with that, I hope that you got something out of this Q and a. If you have any other questions, reach out to me, please. But yeah, I will catch you on the next episode and again, sign up for the book study. Sign up for the writing class. You don’t have to envision yourself as a writer, a good writer or anything right Like come and freaking, get that story out off your chest. Amounts of paper. But yeah, I will catch you all on the next episode. Bye.

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In this episode:

I share Chris’s story, one of the first people I interviewed for Bottomless to Sober. Chris’s early beginnings, marked by being born into addiction and later adopted, set the stage for a life of searching and self-discovery. His challenges with substance use, identity, and the moments of connecting with his biological parents, offer a raw glimpse into the complexities of healing. His unique approach to sobriety, diverging from the traditional AA path and embracing personal rituals, serves as a powerful reminder that the journey to recovery is deeply personal and distinctly individual.

Resources:

New Book Study for It Didn’t Start With You Coming June 1st

Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Classes, and Workshops

Transcript:

00:00 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Hey, before you listen to today’s episode, I wanted to give you a heads up that there is strong language describing drug use. Thank you. I’m Jessica Duenas, and this is Bottomless to Sober, the podcast where I talk about anything and everything related to life since my transition from bottomless drinking to a sober life. Related to life since my transition from bottomless drinking to a sober life. Hey, everyone, for today’s episode, I wanted to share an old story that I had shared back in 2021. Early on in my recovery, I came across an online friend who I’ve actually lost touch with since, but his name is Chris and he had shared a story with me back when Bottomless Sober was only a blog, and I remember that one of the things that really touched me and struck me about his story was the fact that he was in recovery but he didn’t go to AA meetings. He was definitely the first individual who I met who was not spiraling in active addiction and identified as being in recovery without going to AA. Early on in my recovery, I definitely believed that the only way to get sober was through the 12-step pathway, and so for me, anybody who was addicted to anything and was recovering outside of those spaces I genuinely believe that they would probably perish, right. And so I met Chris and he was sort of like the first person to plant that seed in me that there’s multiple ways to recover and it really falls on the individual to find what works best for them, right, like we’re responsible to find peace and happiness in our own journeys. So, anyway, when I started the blog, I asked him if he would be willing to share his story with me, and I just recently thought of him, so I decided to pull up this story and share it here on the podcast, cause I do think that his story, wherever he is, is a powerful one and for anybody who is sort of just struggling with finding their way, anyone who is struggling with just like navigating previous childhood trauma that they’ve been through. You know, here’s the story of someone who had been through hard things and found a way to recover that works for them, and so, again, I’ll just go ahead and I’ll share it. And, chris, if you are out there and you hear this, go ahead and I’ll share it. And, chris, if you are out there and you hear this, I’d love to hear from you. With that being said, this is it’s my recovery and my journey Chris’s story From the beginning. I was born prematurely, four to five months premature. Apparently I was full of crack cocaine, survived that, went into foster care and was adopted at 18 months. Chris was so casual as if being born addicted to drugs and being placed in the foster care system was no big deal. Then I reflected on the stories I’ve heard about my own story even and realized that maybe the ability to be one step removed emotionally from our own story is a trait we all carry for the sake of surviving.

03:10
Chris was raised by his adoptive Black family in Dallas-Fort Worth. Childhood was great and he described his environment as warm and he felt like he fit right in. Then he learned that he was adopted. So what changed the environment? I asked. No, it was me, he replied.

03:31
There was a change, a shift in Chris. When he was six, his parents sat him down to let him know that his sister was on the way and she was joining the family exactly as he did through an adoption. His perception of the world around him was forever altered. The court had to make sure his home was safe for another child. There were proceedings, meetings and home visits. He was soon a big brother. Did his behavior change at this age. No, however, chris had discovered the world was not as it had seemed. He was adopted. Parents put children up for adoption. These were new realizations.

04:13
Chris asked himself what else is there? What else don’t I know? He started to wonder where, who, why, what? He said All the wondering really so. Did you ever find your parents or look for them? I asked. I did. Chris said he was 29.

04:36
He attained unsealed records from his entire adoption process, including his birth records. He was able to read through those. I found the names. I went to Facebook. There they were.

04:48
So did you meet them? Were they together? Were they using? Were they sober? What was it like? I stopped myself. Sometimes I don’t realize how quickly I can speak, so I took a breath. I often experienced the frenzied speech behavior that is a part of bipolar disorder, and if I get excited about something, I’ll never stop talking.

05:11
Chris smiled. First I’ll tell you about my mother. She was still using. I mean, I’m not going to lie, it was rough to meet her, but, to be fair, I was extremely drunk at the time as well. No surprise there. I would be too. Who wouldn’t get drunk? Well, I suppose a quote-unquote normal person wouldn’t. I forgot. We’re not all the same. It was the same day that he also met his biological father and no, not at the same time, because of course I asked, but on the same day. His parents are no longer together. His father wasn’t hired drunk, to his blurred memory To be honest, I’m not sure if my father was or is sober. They haven’t spoken in two years. He hasn’t seen his mother since the day they met.

06:05
The conversation went back to the early days of Chris’s using and drinking. Like many high school students, he began drinking on and off in party settings. It started then and it felt like it lasted until forever until I finally stopped. It was still social then. Sometimes the drinks were spiked at parties. Sometimes I was with cousins who had access to the liquor cabinets. My drinking didn’t become heavy until I got to college, so I was around 18. So how heavy is heavy? Thursday through Sunday, every weekend, he said. I remember those weekends, drunken weekends, the weekends that made it easy to blend in, the weekends where an alcoholic or drug addict might still, albeit falsely, feel a part of the group, the good old days when drinking was the norm and no one judged you yet for your awful hangovers or your reckless behavior. And no one judged you yet for your awful hangovers or your reckless behavior. Chris described himself as a lucid drunk during his college years. He never blacked out. Though he wasn’t spiritual then he definitely credits the universe with making sure he got home safely, even when he didn’t remember it.

07:11
His drug use started when he was 19. Touchy, feely, energetic, spacey was how it felt in the beginning for him. Okay, so when did it stop being fun, I asked. Adderall, it’s one of those drugs where you think I can do this until you realize that you can’t stop. You think you’re okay. Then you realize you’re not okay.

07:37
Further, chris realized his drinking was problematic when he couldn’t manage to stop. Once he started, his tolerance was so high that people would give him nonstop drinks, but he wouldn’t get sick and he never threw up. He started coming home drunk, getting some sleep, waking up and then going to class and later work like nothing happened. I didn’t need to be watched while I drank, but, come to think of it, I probably should have, he smiled. What about heroin, as he said? Culturally, as a Black person, needles have always been looked down on. But laughing, he continued. But for all the shit I put into my body. The needle standard was so arbitrary. Sure, he snorted it and got high, but he got sick. It felt like trash and it was one and done. Many first-time heroin users tell a different story, a feeling of intense relief washing over them. For Chris, though, he vomited as if he was possessed by a demon and he never touched heroin again.

08:44
Chris didn’t finish college, but it wasn’t his drinking and drug use, he said. I never did finish, but it’s because I never wanted to start either. He didn’t want to go in the first place, but he was pressured to live up to societal norms and his family’s expectations. I mean, it’s what you do. You graduate from high school, you go to college wherever you get accepted and can afford to go to, you work, then you die. For a lot of people they can live that linear life, but I couldn’t. I was always an adventurer, always an explorer. It’s a part of where the drugs came in. I was always curious about them and I was bipolar. They helped.

09:20
Chris was diagnosed with bipolar disorder at age 15. He found that the psychiatric medications made him feel horrible. So he stopped taking the medications and, like many others, self-medicated with drugs and alcohol. There wasn’t a drug that was off limits except for heroin. After that one use, his doctors warned him about his drug use, that the manic spikes would be dangerous and the depressive states even more intense given the path he was on. But that didn’t stop him. I understood the feeling when I was told my liver enzymes were dangerously high and that I had alcoholic hepatitis. I should have stopped then, but I didn’t.

09:58
For people with bipolar disorder, sobriety can be a delicate balancing game. The extremes lead to self-medicating with drugs and alcohol. The use of the drugs and alcohol create a physical dependency. So when the bipolar person tries to break free from the physical addiction, their medication is gone, their relief is gone. It’s merely a matter of time before a bipolar person gets triggered, falls apart and goes back to drinking or using. According to American Addiction Centers, the rate of co-occurring substance use disorders in individuals diagnosed with bipolar disorder ranges from about 20% to as high as nearly 60%. So Chris dropped all the substances and started going to Bible study.

10:40
Even though he was trying to stay sober, he still didn’t feel whole. So when he started to drink he started to feel the conflict between his need to drink for relief and the persona he created for himself at church. He couldn’t feel through himself, so he ended up heavily drinking and smoking again and before long he was back to hard drugs. So is Chris an alcoholic, since he started to drink first and drugs came after? I know several people in the 12-step community at the time that I wrote this who call themselves alcoholics even though they have had extensive drug use. Why they say that once they drink they can’t stop there.

11:23
Chris, he didn’t need a substance in any particular order in order to want the rest of them. Anything that was mind-altering and brought relief was his substance of choice in that moment. Altering and brought relief was his substance of choice in that moment. His moods dictated what type of relief he was seeking. So for him, the words alcoholic or drug addict are irrelevant. He said that he could do three lines of Coke and suddenly decide to drink, or the other way around.

11:49
For him it was the disease of never enough. And remember, chris, he doesn’t like to fit inside boxes. Right? For some people, the motivation to stop is a significant consequence, a terrifying moment, but for Chris the desire to stop came from within. I’m drinking all the time by myself. I could drink everyone under the table, do drugs all night, stay awake for four or five days. I’m tired of it. It’s not serving me, it’s not benefiting me, it’s just costing me a bunch of money and what for? And that was literally it.

12:25
Chris does face some challenges. Chris was originally known as a source for drugs. I still have friends or distant family who will text me asking if I can help them find this drug or that drug. It was just who I was. It was an entirely different personality I had. And for Chris a 12-step program wouldn’t work. He’s too much of an individual. He likes to blaze his own path. But he’s not against 12-step programs for other people. He said if that would work for you, do it. You have to do what’s right for you.

13:01
In his recovery he has not necessarily abstained 100%, but his life today is drastically different than when it was before. He tells himself not to be so judgy or so hard on himself, but to try his best. For that day he felt going cold turkey would be too difficult because it would make him fixate on wanting it more. He’s not counting days and he’s not putting pressure on himself to say that he’ll never drink or use drugs again. Days, and he’s not putting pressure on himself to say that he’ll never drink or use drugs again. He’s had about two shots of alcohol since last fall and for him it’s important to focus on the fact that it’s two shots compared to the three bottles that he would have slammed in the past. For Chris, it’s harder to deal with the people who are surprised he’s not drinking than it is to not drink. Recently he faced a challenge when he went to a Super Bowl party and didn’t drink and didn’t use.

13:55
So what about? One is too many, and a thousand is never enough For Chris. He feels he could have one, but he always asks himself what am I thinking? How am I feeling? Why would I do it? I already know where it’s going to lead me and how I’m going to be feeling later. After one it’s going to be two, after two it’s going to be three, and at that point I’m just drinking. And it creates a circle. The more aware I become daily, the better I am at stopping those thoughts when they creep up.

14:29
Every morning, chris gets up and looks in the mirror first thing and says to his reflection I don’t drink, I don’t smoke, I don’t use. He prays, he meditates, he exercises, and then it’s time to face the world. So again, thank you for listening and, chris, if you are out there, I hope you are well, friend, and I would love to hear from you. Thanks everyone for listening to today’s episode. Hey, if you are enjoying what you are listening to, I invite you to subscribe and share the podcast. But also go to my website, bottomless, to sobercom, and find out other opportunities to work with me, from free workshops to writing classes to one-to-one life coaching opportunities. You can schedule a free consultation for that. Everything is available at bottomlisttosilvercom. See you then.

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Link to Spotify

In this episode:

This episode is a testament to the fact that the stories we tell ourselves are not just stories; they’re the foundations of our reality. As I share my experiences of transition from heavy drinking to sobriety, you’ll learn how storytelling can be the key to unlocking the chains of addiction and setting you on a course toward self-discovery and true connection.

Through my experiences and a powerful excerpt from Brianna Weiss’s The Pivot Year, we navigate the complex terrain of asking for help, the fear of being a burden, and the importance of reaching out.

Resources:

Book Mentioned – The Pivot Year, by Brianna Wiest

Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Classes, and Workshops

Transcript:

00:18 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Hey, everyone, for today’s episode I wanted to talk about storytelling. It is a subject that is near and dear to my heart. I would not be alive and sober today if it weren’t for the fact that I decided to open up. Of course, my version of opening up is an extreme version of opening up. I don’t expect anyone to dive into storytelling by telling their story in a newspaper, right. But connecting to our stories, even if it’s just on the basic level of identifying what is real and what is not real, can be really, really helpful in terms of just navigating decision-making and also freeing ourselves from a lot of painful shit that we put ourselves through. We’ve been talking about it a lot as well in our work in the Luckiest Club. I’m currently teaching I’m not teaching it, my bad I am helping with facilitating small group conversations in the sober life course happening at the luckiest club and we’ve been talking about storytelling. So it’s just, it’s really fresh on my mind, like, obviously, in my bottomless sober offerings, right, like, we can write our story. We can dive into books to make sense of our stories, or we can go through life coaching and one-on-one and talk about our stories Right, and so I just wanted to talk about it in this episode. So I’m going to open it up with a quick reading from Brianna Weiss, the Pivot Year.

01:37
I highly recommend this book. If you have not picked it up, please do. She is wise beyond her years and really just every page has a really, really powerful reflection. So this is from entry 208, and this is what she wrote. You either see endings or, within them, new beginnings. You either see that you’re living the days your younger self once dreamt of, or you’re still waiting on something more. You either see a storm that disrupts your path or one that corrects your course. You either see the hours as long and thankless, or life is brief and precious. You either see the mysterious unknown or an endless realm of possibility. There is what you experience and then there is the story you tell yourself about it. Over time, that story becomes the truth you carry and the other details fade in the distance Over time.

02:38
How you write the narrative determines how you experience reality, and that’s huge, right, like that is heavy and huge and powerful, and I wanted to talk about that, especially with regard to the idea of asking for help and connecting with other people, because one of the things that I feel like I’ve noticed a lot of folks talking about lately is that they really feel like they’re a burden when they’re struggling with something and they need to ask for help Right. And there’s just so many stories that we tell ourselves to block us from contacting somebody, from picking up the damn phone and either sending a text message or just calling or sending a voice note Right. Like there’s so many things that we tell ourselves to keep us isolated and alone and continuing to use maladaptive strategies to cope with the feelings and half the time it’s probably alcohol, but other things too right. And so the next time that you tell yourself, oh, I’m bothering them, I want you to think about maybe, maybe you’re not right, like. I’ll give an example I have a childhood best friend and you know when I was struggling in my addiction, when I got to a really hard point of struggling, you know I don’t even know what the hell was happening half the time. I’ll be honest with you, but you know there were years before my drinking got to the point of me drinking a fifth a night when I could have reached out to her. Right, I could have said hey, I’m feeling lonely, hey, I am feeling frustrated as hell at something going on here. There are so many times that I could have just reached out and been like, hey, do you have some space to talk to me? And I didn’t do that, right? And so if that’s you right, like, instead of telling yourself that by calling, you’re inconveniencing someone, right? Especially if this is a someone who knows that you are on a healing journey, right, if this is someone that you have told that you are working on your sobriety, why wouldn’t you reach out to them? They’re probably hoping that you do so before you tell yourself that you. But they can’t help you if you don’t tell them that you need support. The people that love us. They are not mind readers and they don’t have these tracking devices on them that notify them when you are having a hard time. That’s not their job to figure out. It’s their job to be there for you if you give them the opportunity to do so, right? So again, let’s remember that nobody here is a mind reader. You are not a mind reader and neither are the people who love you and are cheering you on. So if you tell somebody that you’re working on something and you want their support for accountability, use their phone number right. Don’t tell yourself that you’re an inconvenience. Use their phone number right, don’t tell yourself that you’re an inconvenience.

05:48
The other thing that sometimes comes up too is folks will assume and this would happen to me when my sister was. My nieces were younger at the beginning of my struggle and I never wanted to tell my sister that I was having a hard time. Right In my mind I was making up the story that she was too busy with her daughters to worry about me and in a right In my mind I was making up the story that she was too busy with her daughters to worry about me. You know, and in a sense, like my sister and I have a big age gap and I kind of feel like I was really her first experimental child. You know, my, my sister was definitely a mother figure for me and she did that with no problem while I was growing up. So why would she suddenly not want to be there for me now that I’m a woman, right? But in my mind I told myself that she had moved on from caring for me and now had to put her energy into my nieces. And here’s the thing I’m sure she was busy plenty of times. She is a super involved mom, and especially when my nieces were still at home, of course she was like going to any of their activities, et cetera. But you know what, what I didn’t stop to think about was the fact that my sister was also a grown woman who could have told me hey Jess, I can’t talk to you right now. Can I give you a call back later? Or hey, jess, can we make sure to talk tomorrow? Right now my hands are full, you know, et cetera.

06:58
I never gave her that chance. I never gave her the chance to speak up for herself, right Um she? I know how much it hurt her. Now that I’m sober and we’ve talked about it, I know how much it hurt her that I never went to her for help. It really devastated her, especially because I let my problems escalate to the point, as you all know, that I was in and out of rehabs, right Um? Hospitalizations, car accidents, et cetera. So for her to have seen her little sister escalate to that point without having been given an opportunity to even step in and help.

07:33
That was really hard for her and that was really unfair of me to do that to her, because I assumed I told myself the story. I convinced myself that she was too busy being a mom. Well, you know, women aren’t only mothers. Women are also sisters and daughters and friends, right, like we are many things. We’re not just a mom and I just I didn’t give that opportunity to practice being like the big sister that she loves doing, right? And so the next time that you tell yourself that your loved one is too busy with something to take your call, without you even trying to call or ask by text, like, hey, do you have a second? You know, stop and reframe it Right, and like, tell yourself that your you know, friends, sister, loved one, they’re grown and they can tell you if they can’t talk to you. Don’t, don’t make that assumption for them, Don’t speak for them.

08:26
And you know, like, the last example that I was thinking about, too, is is when I would go to meetings, right, and I would get all these numbers, and this was specifically like I would say like in 2020, when I was like really struggling and going to. At that time, I would go to 12-step programs and you know, people were always giving me their phone numbers, a lot of people I was not into. I was definitely not going to call them. But there were a few people who genuinely felt warm and fuzzy and like safe people. They definitely didn’t activate like my creep factor, so I could have called them Right, but I would start to tell myself like, oh no, I’m bothering them, I’m not going to call them. Mind you, they sat there in a meeting with a huge smile on their face, giving me their phone number and literally saying hey, call me anytime, anytime you need anything, call me Right. Like they’re literally giving me the blueprint for how to connect with them and I’m like, no, they don’t know what they’re talking about, they don’t want to talk to me, I’m not going to bother them.

09:26
Right, and these stories that we tell ourselves, they’re so powerful because they feel so true, they feel so rational in our bodies. But of course, it’s like our brain is always going to want to connect the dots in a way that makes sense to us, to also keep us in our comfort zone, right? So if continuing to drink is in your comfort zone, your brain is going to do every single thing possible to make you not call the people who are going to hold you accountable and support you in sobriety. To hold you accountable and support you in sobriety, it’s just, it’s the way that we are. It’s basically, I feel like it’s like the mental law of inertia, right, the body in motion stays in motion while the person drinking stays drinking. That’s what they’re going to want to continue to do, and we have to do something to break that inertia of alcohol, right?

10:11
And so again, the next time someone in a meeting space or in a community space of any kind gives you their phone number and they’re like hey, please call me, please text me, I would love to connect with you, go ahead and do so, right? Like? Ask yourself the question am I a mind reader? How do I like? What evidence do I have that I’m bothering the person who asked me to call them? Right, you’ll realize that you have no evidence. There is no proof because you’re just making it up in your head, but it sounds and feels real because it’s coming from your brain. So you know like you’re, you’re not suddenly a telepath, and I think that that’s so important to remember. And so if you didn’t get anything out of this. I just hope that you walk away from listening to this podcast episode and processing the fact that, one, you are not an inconvenience and two, you are not a bother. Right, you will encounter difficult times. Welcome to reality.

11:10
Whether you’re sober or not sober, or in whatever other kind of path you are, life is going to get difficult sometimes. There’s no immunity from that. There’s no protection from that. Quitting drinking does not protect you from hard times, right? And the story that you tell yourself is absolutely going to dictate if you’re going to go through these tough times alone and miserable and struggling, or if you’re going to go through these challenges with the support of others. You may still be miserable, but at least you won’t have to be alone, and that’s the important thing to remember. So, again, loving reminder, you are not an inconvenience, you are not a bother. Thank you so much. I am looking forward to seeing you on the next episode. Hey, if you are enjoying what you are listening to, I invite you to subscribe and share the podcast, but also go to my website, bottomless, to sobercom, and find out other opportunities to work with me, from free workshops to writing classes, to one-to-one life coaching opportunities. You can schedule a free consultation. For that, everything is available at bottomless to sobercom. See you then.

Return to Podcast Directory

Link to Spotify

In this episode:

Listen in as I share a personal narrative, starting with my mom’s unwavering lunch routine that travels from Brooklyn to Costa Rica, and how it serves as a launchpad for a larger conversation on inherited beliefs. I tackle the importance of questioning the doctrines passed down by our mothers and consider the influence of societal structures like patriarchy on these generational patterns. The discussion expands to embrace insights from Kelly McDaniel’s “Mother Hunger,” providing a framework for adult daughters to understand and heal from the absence of nurturance, protection, and guidance.

Resources:

Free Worksheet

Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Classes, and Workshops

Transcript:

00:19 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Hey everyone. So for today’s episode we’re going to talk about moms Specifically. What we’re going to talk about are the beliefs and teachings that we get from our moms and the value of stopping to examine those beliefs to see if they resonate with us. So I originally recorded this little anecdote at the end of the episode and then I realized that it makes more sense to just open with it, just so that you can see what I’m talking about. So here, here it goes.

00:48
My mom has a habit. I’ll share a funny story with her. Well, I don’t know how funny it is, but my mom has a tendency of always, no matter like, she has certain habits and routines. Like, she only eats lunch at 2 PM Eastern standard time. She used to eat lunch at 2 PM Eastern standard time the like 30 something years that she had a botanica in Brooklyn, and then a botanica. For those of you who don’t know, it’s a store that sells things like candles and little statues. You know, it’s a very Afro-Caribbean kind of spiritual store. Anyway, she moves to Costa Rica. Costa Rica is usually on central time or sometimes it’s on mountain time, depending on daylight savings, et cetera. Now that she lives in Costa Rica, she insists on eating either at one o’clock her time or 12 o’clock her time, depending on when it’s 2 PM Eastern standard time.

01:39
And I’ve been like but mommy, like, why, why don’t you eat when you’re hungry? And this is what she says. She’ll say well, my mother always taught me to just eat on a schedule. Obviously, she says this in Spanish, right? And I’m like okay, so just because your mom said that, so you’re just going to do it. And and literally like for her, her response is, of course, and I’m just like nah, I cannot live that way. I’m sorry, I don’t care who you are. Just because you’re doing something some way, I’m not going to automatically by default, like copy it, not anymore, old Jess, you know old drinking Jess, sure, but I’m sober. You’re probably sober or you’re working on your sobriety if you’re listening to this, and we don’t have to just automatically do things just because they were told to us. Right, so I will eat when I’m hungry, not on some rigid schedule. No, thank you, I am done with that life. I’ve left that life of like strictly managing what I eat about a year and a half ago. But again, my mom right, who I learned that from. Clearly we see that she was influenced by her mother right, and so who knows what was going on with my grandmother to put my mother on this strict eating schedule that she’s still following at the age of 84 years old. I’m not doing that, y’all. I’m 39 years old. When I’m 84, if I make it to 84, I wanna eat whatever the hell I want to, whenever the hell I want to, and that’s that. I’m not looking at the clock.

03:05
So anyway, I’ve been facilitating this book study for the book Mother Hunger by Kelly McDaniel. The full title of the book is Mother Hunger how Adult Daughters Can Understand and Heal from Lost Nurturance, protection and Guidance. Right, and she has been in chapter five. She does a really excellent job of reminding the reader of how we’re literally basically like swimming in patriarchy and how patriarchy, which is basically, in layman’s terms, the belief that men are better than women how that underlying belief can impact the way that a grandmother treats the mother, which in turn then treats the daughter right, and we don’t even realize it right. I’ll pull this quote, which is actually so.

03:51
The author, kelly McDaniel, quotes Anjali Dial in her book and I’m reading Anjali Dial’s words here, but just to kind of give you a sense of how pervasive patriarchy is right. And so she wrote patriarchy is evident in the everyday violence against women. It is reflected in the battlements we use or we build to protect ourselves, the little accommodations, the things you do reflexively to keep yourself from being hurt while you walk around, all the subtle ways you protect yourself from being alone with some men in offices and other men in cars and all unknown men in large, empty buildings. Every time you’ve ignored the lewd comment from a man on the street or at a bar or at a party, because who knows what he’ll do if you lash out the quick scan of a subway car when the train pulls into the station to ensure that there are enough people so you won’t be alone if someone threatens you, but not so many people that you’ll get groped without being able to place the hands.

04:46
A thousand transgressions so small and so regular that you never named them to anyone because that’s just the way life is right. And that’s that last part. A thousand transgressions so small and so regular that you never named them because that’s the way life is right. And she compares the way that we are like literally swimming in patriarchy, right, like swimming in these ideas that we’ve been taught without thinking, to the idea of two fish who are just swimming in water and if, like, an older fish tells that little fish like, hey, how’s the water? They’re going to be like what water? Because they don’t stop to think about that. That’s their environment. That’s a quote pulled from John Foster Wallace’s graduation speech.

05:29
So, anyway, the point being that our mothers can often be influenced by, of course, their own mothers, but a lot of times there’s beliefs that they’re carrying that are again embedded into them by patriarchy and other systems. Right, to give you an opportunity to look at those beliefs with a closer lens, examine where might they be coming from and then decide if they are still true for you or if they’re not still true for you, right? So I’m going to pull this specific quote from page 79 of Kelly McDaniel’s Mother Hunger, where she wrote we don’t consciously wake up one day and decide to devalue ourselves, right? It’s much more insidious. We simply swim in feminine constructs that tell us how to behave, how to look and who to love as we grow and develop, and sometimes we learn this from our mothers, right. And again, when we talk about just layman’s terms, right, misogyny, patriarchy, you know, patriarchy is essentially the belief that men, men should lead, or men are better than women, right? And misogyny that hatred of women. And so, again, a lot of what we’ve been taught comes from these basic constructs, right? So, with that being said, kelly McDaniel says that we’ve learned from our mothers, right, how to behave, how to look and who to love as we grow and develop, and so I want to take a moment right To to reflect on that, and so I have a worksheet that goes along with this kind of thought process. So, again, check the links in the resources to this episode in the show notes. You can pull up this worksheet here as well. If you’re on my email list, you’re going to get this email to you as well, obviously, if you’re, if you subscribed or you’re listening to this like after April 14th of 2024, then, yeah, you’re going to definitely just need to look on the show notes.

07:46
But let me get back to the point here. So what I want you to do is I want you to first look at the things you’ve learned from your mother? Slash mother figure, right. But I want you to break it down First, what have you learned from her in terms of how to behave? And, if you’re a man who’s listening to this, what have you learned about how women should behave? Right, number two what have you learned about how to look, with regard to appearance, from your mother, or mother figure? And, again, if you’re a man and you’re listening to this, what have you learned about how women should look? Then, the third one is what have you learned about who to love, or how to love from your mother? Slash mother figure, right? I’ll share, from my perspective, just to kind of give you some examples. So, with regard to my own mother, things that I’ve learned about how to behave I’ve learned to be quiet. I’ve learned to not talk about any of my problems right, and those are two really big ones to be quiet and not talk about my problems.

08:57
If I go to the next column, where did this belief come from? In the first place, from my mother. She was definitely taught that women should be quiet, right. She was definitely taught that women should not be taking up space at all. And I’ll add the added cultural factor, too, that my mom is a Latino woman and she was an undocumented immigrant when she first came to the United States, so she also had that added layer of you really don’t want to be speaking and rocking the boat because you don’t wanna get caught and get in trouble and get sent back home.

09:32
Now the third column of this exercise asks do you still believe this to be true? Why or why not? I don’t believe this to be true. I don’t believe that I still need to be quiet and not talk about my issues. I think that it’s courageous to speak up. I think that it’s important to take up space and for me, it’s worth taking some risks of not being accepted and not having people’s approval by speaking up. So thankfully, I’m not still attached to that belief, but there’s others that I’ve struggled with detaching myself from. So I’m going to move to the next one. Right?

10:09
So for how to look, things that I’ve learned from my mother slash mother figure about how to look include that I should be thin, that I should have straight hair, that I should only have dark hair, that I should be light-skinned. So I would say those are the general things that I would say that I’ve learned. Now, in terms of where did these beliefs come from in the first place? So, being thin, I think that in many cultures, right, being thin, has been a common expectation, and I feel like, again, when we’re talking about, say, white supremacy. Right, my mother? Again, she comes from people who were colonized by Europeans, and so the straight hair was an ideal trait to have, because that made you less of color. The dark straight hair also dark hair in terms of, like, trying to look youthful right, my mother has. She only stopped dyeing her hair about two, three years ago, when she’s 84. So my mom refused to let herself go gray because of this idea that you can’t look old. Right?

11:19
What was the other thing? I should have written these down, of course, I’m just talking through the worksheet, but I didn’t write this one down. I had taken these notes the other day. The other belief being light skin. Going back to, again, my mom comes from generations of colonized people, right. So, again, for colonized people, the wider you looked, the more likely your life was going to be easier and less challenging.

11:42
And so you know, for me, I did come out with brown skin after my father, who was a black Cuban, and I have lots of memories of my mom telling me to get out of the sun when I was a kid because I would get darker and darker and darker and that was not okay for her. I understand now, you know obviously it wasn’t helpful then, but she thought she was being helpful, she thought she was protecting me. Obviously that was not at all what she was doing, but you know, that’s kind of like the logic there. And even then, with the whole, the whole skinny thing, right, like there was a lot of fat shaming that I went through as a child when I struggled with my weight, and my mom’s intention behind that was she was trying to quote unquote protect me so that I could be desirable when I was older and attract a husband and like not be alone for the rest of my life. Right, like you know, these are these wild outcomes that she was trying to make sure that she was manipulating and controlling, um, and at the end of the day, no, she did a lot of damage, of course, like I.

12:38
I, moving into the third column, do I still believe this to be true? Why, or why not, I would say only in the last year and a half have I finally released this desire to be quote unquote, to be skinny, right, and that’s because I’ve had to do a lot of work as to where did this really come from and is this something that really resonates with me? Because, again, I have spent my entire life on some sort of a diet for the sake of being skinny, because my mom said I was supposed to, and so I think that, again, it’s so important to look at these things, look at where they’re coming from, and do they really resonate with us. So then, the last column, I mean the last row of this chart again, when you have the worksheet in front of you, it will come together right Is things that you’ve learned from your mother slash mother figure about who or how to love.

13:27
For me, specifically on how to love, I’ve been taught to cook and clean that’s how you show love and to be quiet and accept any and all bad behaviors. Right? I’ve also been told, in terms of who to love, that I should be with someone who has a lot of money, and my mom has told me that I would be better off with a white person, right? And so, again, where did these beliefs come from in the first place, in terms of the money and the white right? Like a white male with a lot of money. That is totally coming from a colonized perspective, like, well, the closer that you can get to them, to the people who have the power, the more protected you would be right. So that’s totally coming from that. That’s coming absolutely also from like internalized white supremacist ideas.

14:15
However, in terms of how to show love, right, Like the cooking and the cleaning and things like that, I mean, that’s totally just what also has been said so prevalently in Latin America that women’s role is to cook and clean and really that the men should be going out there and, you know, making the money, bringing home and providing. Now, what’s important you know I had a great conversation in the book study about this piece right is that sometimes we do want to cook and sometimes we do want to clean and we do want to take care of the home for our significant other. And I think the important thing to consider here is your power of choice If you’re cooking and cleaning because you feel that the cooking and cleaning is going to keep your partner with you, as opposed to cooking and cleaning because you’re wanting to contribute to your household. There’s a totally different dynamic there, right, if you’re coming at it from a space of obligation and that you must do it. That’s totally different from I want to do this. This is how I’m contributing into the home, and so I think that that’s really important to consider when you’re looking at things like cooking and cleaning. Right, or is it like that only you can cook and clean? I think that’s also important to consider and look at, right.

15:34
But anyway, to move over into that last question with regard to the beliefs, do I still believe this to be true? Why, or why not? I don’t believe that I show my love through cooking and cleaning. Not at all. Thankfully, I have been released from that belief. I really do think that for me, I appreciate a partner who can take on some of that load, because there’s a lot to do for me as a professional woman. I have a nine to five job and I run a small business, right, there’s a lot that I’m juggling, so I don’t want to be doing all the cooking and cleaning. I just don’t. And so to me, it’s love when someone can take some of that off my load, right?

16:17
And then, in terms of who to love, I am not looking for a rich white man to marry to much to my mother’s disappointment. Right Like, at this point, I’m looking for someone who is helping me. I mean, my current partner fits the bill, right, like I’m looking for someone who is going to help me just tap into myself and be genuine and authentic. I don’t need a financial provider because I provide for myself and so also, I don’t need a white person. Like, I’ve dated them, right. My ex-husband was, and Ian, who you all have heard about if you’ve listened to previous episodes, he was also a white person. But at this point, I’m not looking at you because of the color of your skin as a way to like make my life easier or not, right, like, that’s not how I’m looking for my partner, and my current partner is a black American. So, again, it’s just like that. I’m not going after, like, what my mother prescribed to be like the best ways to date. I’m not at all Definitely not taking my dating advice from my mother.

17:12
But anyway, moving forward, the next part of this worksheet right that I want you to reflect on, too, is this is like my favorite part of this activity, which is to pick one of the beliefs that your mother or mother figure passed on to you and rewrite it into a belief that resonates more with you, that you can pass on, right? Like, let this be a belief that you would want others to someday put on a worksheet that they learned from you, right? Something that you’d be proud of people saying, yeah, I learned this from so-and-so. This might be something like, if you’re listening and you’re a parent, maybe this is something that you do want to pass on to your children, right? What’s a belief that you want your children to have that you carry. But really, if you don’t like, for example, I don’t have children of my own, so I just think about who do I influence and who would I want to get this thought from me, right? So you know, I’m an educator, so I think about the students I work with. I also have nieces. I have my partner’s son, right? So, like, what would I want them to take away from me? That’s a belief, right? Something that a future generation could learn from you. So take a moment and sit with that and reflect on that.

18:25
But anyway, thank you all so much for your time with me. I’m looking forward to seeing what you all come up with. Feel free to reach out and share anything that you do with this worksheet. Thanks y’all. Hey, if you are enjoying what you are listening to, I invite you to subscribe and share the podcast. But also go to my website, bottomlisttosobercom, and find out other opportunities to work with me, from free workshops to writing classes to one-to-one life coaching opportunities. You can schedule a free consultation for that. Everything is available at bottomlesstosober.com. See you then.

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In this episode:

In this introspective episode, I dive deep into the core of our desire to please others. Is this drive a subtle quest for control, or is it rooted in age-old survival tactics? I challenge you to consider the possibility of deeper truths lying beneath the surface of people-pleasing behaviors. Before you cast judgment on yourself for seeking approval, pause and reflect with me: “What else could be true?”

This exploration isn’t just about understanding why we act the way we do; it’s an invitation to view ourselves through a lens of compassion and curiosity. Welcome to a space where self-discovery and empathy converge.

Resources:

Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Classes, and Workshops

Transcript:

So for today’s episode, I wanted to have a conversation about the idea or the importance of asking ourselves the question what else could be true? The reason why this is coming up is because, you know, probably a few weeks ago, both in conversations and meetings that I was facilitating, but also in my email list that I write, you know, I was reflecting on the idea of people pleasing in particular, right? So I’ll kind of use people pleasing as an example as to why we should always ask ourselves the question what else could be true? Right? Basically, you know, a couple of weeks ago, maybe a month ago, dr Nicola Pera, on her Instagram account and probably her other social media accounts as well account, and probably her other social media accounts as well she wrote that at the end of the day, you know, people pleasing is about ourselves and not wanting to feel uncomfortable emotions and working with people. There’s always an aha moment when someone understands that they’re not really people pleasing, that they’re actually controlling, they’re trying to control how someone perceives them and how they feel right, and that once you understand this, you can start to break the pattern of people pleasing. That did resonate with me, right.

01:32
And there was a discussion that I had when I was reflecting on back when I was secretly struggling with alcohol addiction. There was a time that I spent the winter holiday break in a treatment facility and literally nobody knew, because school was closed so I wasn’t absent, right. And when I had come back from that winter break, I was sitting in a faculty circle and I had this abrupt moment of just tears flowing down my face and nobody understood why I was crying, right. All I could say was all that I felt safe to say or comfortable to share with my colleagues at that time was I had a really hard break, but there was no way in hell that I was ready to say oh, actually I had been hospitalized because I’m addicted to alcohol and I needed to go to rehab over winter break. There was no way that I was going to admit that, right. And so when I connected that story back to what Dr Nicola Pero was sharing on people-pleasing, it was true for me I was ashamed of being addicted to alcohol, right, and I also wanted to keep my addiction to alcohol a secret because I couldn’t bear the idea of being viewed differently in the eyes of my professional colleagues. You know I was a teacher at that point. I was already the state teacher of the year. So if I’m the number one teacher in the state and I’m battling an addiction to alcohol, I couldn’t put the two together, like the two couldn’t exist at the same time as truths in my heart. And so there was no way that I could allow that to be spoken out into the universe and for other human beings to think that or know that about me as well. And so I needed to control the narrative and therefore I kept quiet in that faculty circle when I could have potentially opened up and said what happened. But my truth was I didn’t, because I wanted to control that narrative. And, going back to Nicola Pera’s point, I wanted to be in control.

03:36
Now there’s other times that I hear people talking about people pleasing and how people pleasing can be a manipulative act. Right that very often, when we hear people talk about people pleasing, we make it sound like it’s such a selfless thing. Well, I just want to make everyone happy and I just want to make sure that other people are uncomfortable or are comfortable, even if it is at my own expense, right? We hear that a lot, and oftentimes that is shot down by well then you’re trying to be manipulative because you want everyone to think that you’re such a good person, because you want everyone to you know, just think that you’re you’re the bee’s knees, that you’re just so self-sacrificing and so kind and so loving when you’re. When you’re not, you’re just trying to control that narrative.

04:21
I was really leaning heavily into that, and I recently received an opportunity to ask myself what else can be true, and really just a strong reminder of needing to ask that at all times that just because I see something in so-called you know, like pop psychology, social media I mean Dr Nicole Appiah. I love her and I adore, like everything that she puts out. I really enjoy her content, but obviously there’s only so much that you can capture in a social media post, right? And so I think that that’s what’s important for us to remember. As we look at things that people share, as we look at ideas that are shared in meetings, as we look at anything, all we’re getting is a snippet, right? We’re never getting a whole picture when someone is just tossing an idea out there casually, no-transcript, take what we need and then also ask ourselves what else can be true, right? Because here’s the thing I am in the middle of facilitating this book study, which is still open for anybody, any woman who’s interested in learning about how her relationship with her mother has impacted her, right?

05:30
We just started reading Mother Hunger by Kelly McDaniel and there was this part of the book that really jumped out at me and so I’ll read it to you. It’s from pages 85 to 86 of the book and I’ll just kind of jump around and pull a couple of quotes. But Kelly McDaniel wrote that appeasing behavior for women may just be less risky, right, than fighting or running. And so, as children, many of us learn, say, to appease our mothers, you know as a harm reduction tactic and you know, pleasing and appeasing that it’s similar to a trauma response and it’s an automatic, unconscious reaction that can become an ingrained personality trait. And so I pull this to in honor of what else can be true, right?

06:20
I share this to highlight that the same behavior in one person can have a totally different origin, story and purpose that it serves right. So maybe one person, to be fair, they might be wanting to control what other people think of them and that they think that they’re amazing and these martyrs, and they’re doing all you know, doing it all for everyone else. But for some people, right, depending on the individual, depending on their identity, depending on how they grew up and things that were happening to them over time that were out of their control, for some of these individuals they may have been working on people pleasing, on appeasing others to be safe. And that’s what is so important to remember here about the people pleasing thing that people pleasers are not automatically like these controlling, manipulative assholes which can sometimes be what is made up on socials, right. That people who people-please or might automatically fall into those people-pleasing tendencies. They may have had to learn to people-please at a certain point in order to adapt. They may have learned people-pleasing behaviors from, say, their mothers or the people before them, right? Because those people before them had to people please in order to create safety for themselves and for their loved ones. And so, again, the next time that we hear someone talking about people pleasing and how you know, maybe they’re like shitting on themselves for being people pleasers or shitting on people pleasers I think it’s important to slow down and be like well, you know what else can be true. What else do you know about this situation? I’ll give you a couple of examples.

08:09
So in the book, specifically mother hunger, the, the people pleasing, right the appeasing others for the sake of creating safety is brought up in the context of women having to protect themselves. Content warning for sexual assault. So I’m going to pause for a second. So, if you need to like, stop listening, you can. But in the context of sexual assault, kelly McDaniel writes that some women comply, so to speak, with someone who is sexually assaulting them because to fight back right, especially if it’s someone who’s already in your home to fight back can create a massive backlash from the person committing the sexual assault, especially if it’s a man, right, and so, like they may be, risk getting beat.

08:58
They may risk having their children get hurt, right, they may risk getting kicked out of their home. There’s so many things at risk when it comes to that power dynamic that sometimes the safest thing to do is to please the other person, even if it’s without your consent, right, even if that’s not what you want to do. So that was the example of people pleasing that came up there. Another example of people pleasing was, say, if you have a home where you have a man and a woman in the home and there’s children and again maybe it’s not specific to sexual assault, but in this case it’s towards physical abuse and intimate partner violence and again, that the woman in that home may be choosing to please and to appease the abusive man in the house, not because she wants to, not because she doesn’t want to fight back, not because she doesn’t want to flee right Like fight or flee. Those trauma responses aren’t an option for her because she might be protecting her children, right and so to fight could risk her getting beat, the children getting hurt, and to flee could risk unstable housing for her. And so what’s the third option here? The third option is to appease others.

10:07
Now I wanna move out of that and I want to move, and I can speak to this from experience as an individual of color. Right, my mother was undocumented when she first came to the United States and one of the biggest things that I was taught by her and my father was, no matter what the police are doing, to always be super kind and respectful to them, because in theory, they can just snatch you up and take you away, right, like that’s our experience as a family of immigrants that the police can easily come, snatch you up and then you away. Right, like that’s our experience as a family of immigrants that you know the police can easily come, snatch you up and then you’re gone and we like, never see the person again. Because we have had a few family members get deported right now and I’m obviously the family members who got deported, I’ll be honest, they weren’t doing great things and so I recognize that. But there is that fear there, right, and there is that fear in a community that in communities of color, that police can be massive sources of harm. Right, I don’t have to ask you to Google. You know news stories from the last couple of years, right, for for that to be like a fact for us in our experience. And if, if you’re listening to this and you’re bothered by what I’m saying, I invite you to unsubscribe. If you’re listening to this and you’re bothered by what I’m saying, I invite you to unsubscribe.

11:23
But, with that being said, so for communities of color, right to people, please, may mean having to create a sense of safety in systems where we can feel like we are targets, right, and so people pleasing can be ingrained in us, also in terms of just behaviors that maybe our parents or the people before them had to do to create a sense of safety. It may involve eye contact, it may involve how you speak to authority figures, how you speak to people in uniform. Things like that we are taught. And it’s not because, again, we’re not trying to control the narrative here, we’re not trying to be manipulative assholes, right, but this happens to create a sense of safety so that we can stay alive, so that we can stay in our homes, so that we can stay with our families, right. And so, again, it’s so important to just talk about this people-pleasing concept and ask ourselves what else can be true, because the person who is appeasing others may be doing it to control the narrative, right?

12:24
Again, my example of me being that classroom teacher who was addicted to alcohol and didn’t want to talk about it. A big part of that was controlling the narrative. I didn’t want to be seen as an addict. I didn’t want to be seen as a so-called alcoholic. That was not the story that I didn’t want to be seen as an addict. I didn’t want to be seen as a so-called alcoholic. That was not the story that I was ready to be out there about me, and so I had to be in control of that.

12:44
But there are times, like when my mother learned to be quiet, right. When my mother learned to not stir the pot, she was doing that so that she could stay in this country, right, and so everyone has a different purpose behind why they have people pleased, and so for you bringing it back to you and your opportunity to like, reflect and sit with this right, I have a couple of questions for you to think about in terms of your possible people pleasing. So like number one, if you did used to appease people, to protect yourself or others, and you’re noticing that, like, you’re still doing that today the honest question that only you can answer right is are you still in need of protection, right, like, is this still protecting you from something from, like a real threat? And, with that being said, what threats are you facing, right? Are these threats real or are they perceived? And that’s an important question to ask yourself? And then I’m going to add how might your identity impact this right? So I do want you to think carefully about this one, because people from historically marginalized groups they do face real threats, right, and so sometimes the people-pleasing behavior is a method of survival, a method for safety. So again, I want you to think about it Like if you are a woman and you are dealing with people-pleasing. Well, there’s probably some history there that things that you saw with your mother or family of origin, right as to where that came from. But the question is, whatever you saw, say, in your family of origin, is that still the case for you today?

14:22
Question two if you used to appease people, to control others’ perceptions of you, what was the story that you want to live in other people’s minds about you? So, let’s say, maybe you were the one that wanted to just control that narrative, right, and you wanted to control how others viewed you. What was that story that you’re aiming for others to carry about you? And the follow-up to that is what’s the worst that could happen if that story falls apart, right? What is the worst that could happen if you allow yourself to disappoint these? So, is this the worst thing that can happen? Is this something that you can live with, right? Like, let’s say, if you do disappoint other people because the story that you want out there about yourself, if that falls apart, can you live with that right, and would you be safe if that story were to fall apart?

15:42
So, again, I really want to bring this back to a sense of safety and if you are noticing that you are safe, but mentally and emotionally you don’t feel that way, I would encourage you to maybe speak with a licensed mental health professional at this point right, because we might be talking about some trauma that is ingrained in your body that you might need to work through.

15:47
Again, an excellent resource is Bessel van der Kolk’s. The Body Keeps the Score, but if you’re noticing that, as you’re like reflecting or journaling on these questions, that you feel genuinely threatened and your threats are perception only, that would be a great opportunity to bring that to a licensed mental health professional. So I just wanted to put that out there. So, anyway, so curious to hear, like, if you stop and sit with these questions and anything comes up for you, like send me an email, reach out to me through social media, I would love to hear what has come up for you. But, yeah, thanks so much for listening you all. And again, just remember, just remember, always ask yourself what else can be true, what else can be true, what else can schedule a free consultation for that. Everything is available at bottomlesstosober.com. See you then.

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In this episode:

I’m minding my own business when suddenly, my sister sends a bombshell text reminder – apparently, I got married 11 years ago. I forget I have lived what feels like 100 years in less than 40 years. So, in this episode, I reflect on the lessons I didn’t learn from the time I was married and how it took me getting sober to understand what I needed and how to seek it in love and relationships.

Please note there was a weird audio issue with this episode, so if you don’t like it, please skip it because I was not going to re-record.

Resources:

Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Classes, and Workshops

Six-Week Writing for Healing Program – Reduced Registration Through March 31st!

Transcript:

00:19 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Hey y’all, there are some weird audio things going on with this episode and, to be honest, I wasn’t going to go back and rerecord because I don’t go off of a script, so my apologies. If you don’t like the way the sound sometimes goes out, totally welcome to skip. Otherwise, I hope you enjoy today’s episode. Hey everyone, so fun fact, I got married like 11 years ago, and I would not have remembered it if it wasn’t for the fact that my sister sent me a text message and was like I just had shutterflies send me memories from 11 years ago, and I was basically like well, what happened 11 years ago? Ha, I got married. That goes to show you, I have lived so much life in my 39 distance that things like an entire marriage don’t even like register on my brain. It’s like I promise you, I forget that I was once like a married person, right, Like I have to really think about it because my life is so drastically different. Was then right, like 11 years ago, that I completely blur, like blurted block, so I could have gone through the wedding anniversary and I swear I would not have remembered it if it hadn’t been for my sister’s text message. But anyway, the reason I’m bringing up my marriage is because what I have learned from it, now that I’m 39, right, is that there were lessons that the universe, god, there were lessons that I really could have learned and taken away from my marriage and subsequent divorce that I didn’t, that I continue to face in my years after my divorce and even in like very early sobriety when I first started dating. That would have made my life a whole lot easier if I had learned the lessons and applied them Right and I feel like my love life in my existence, this iteration of my existence on this planet, um, just really goes to show that if you don’t apply the lessons that you learn, you’re going to continue to get hit with them, like it’ll be like a little pebble, a little hint, like hey, you might want to learn this, and then it just gets bigger and bigger, you know, until it feels like you’re getting like hit by a truck with this lesson being learned Right. And so I just wanted to share a couple of lessons that I should have learned in my marriage that I didn’t, with the hopes that maybe some of these lessons might be helpful for you as you navigate your personal romantic relations with other people, and not even just romantic, it applies to anything that is a connection that’s with another human being, honestly. So the first one that I want to talk about is this idea of not begging.

03:04
I remember when I met my ex. We’re going to name my ex spouse John his name was not John, but we’re going to go with John, um, cause, honestly, I have no hard feelings and John, you know, and I have not crossed paths in years, so there’s no need to like throw the name out, et cetera. So when we first met, I was in my early twenties and I had just had my gastric bypass surgery, like months before we met. So when I met him, I was adjusting to a body that was changing rapidly in a way that I mentally was not really prepared to. So think about a 24 year old version of Jessica who has lost about 70 to 80 pounds and literally doesn’t know what to do with herself because her entire life she’s been called, you know, fat shamed by her family. And as I’m hitting this new body, I’m slowly getting hit with the reality Like holy shit, like I’m losing a ton of weight and I don’t feel any different. But was I seeking any professional guidance? Of course not. Was I having reflective conversations with anybody? No, all I know is that I was rapidly losing weight and my outside was changing quickly and it was becoming, it was, accommodating what I was always told I should look like. But on the inside I wasn’t feeling any better about myself. But people were looking at me differently and John who we’ll talk about, you know, was this educator at the school that I was teaching at.

04:43
He was a year younger than me and also brand new, you know, pretty much right out of college. And when I met John he was, you know, tall, very fit, athletic, good looking white guy from the Midwest, from Louisville, kentucky, and I remember thinking he was really cute and I remember thinking he was so different from the New Yorkers I had always been around, right, like you know, people I dated throughout college from New York, brooklyn, the Bronx, et cetera. He was just kind of like sparkling and shiny and new and so different Again, me being from Brooklyn back then meeting someone from Kentucky, a world of a culture shock, a world of a difference, especially like me being a first to like Latino parents, right. So he definitely caught my eye and John was a sweetheart, just an absolute sweetheart, and I expressed an interest in John and I remember being really scared to, but John like called me beautiful. You all, and I’m telling you like if only I could remember, have noted, like calling me beautiful does not make a person good enough for my attention. But you know, I had been so starved of being called beautiful. I had been so starved of being told I was worthy that any time a fucking man would call me beautiful, it was just like, well, let me roll out the red carpet for him. And that’s exactly what happened here with John, right.

06:15
And so John and I were really good friends with really intense feelings for each other. Really intense feelings for each other and like he flew me out to Kentucky to meet his family, right, like I was completely out of my element, like this Brooklyn girl in like Louisville, kentucky and going in the woods. And I did like my first camping trip, miserable and uncomfortable, but I was so happy to do it with this guy because he was good looking and he called me beautiful but wanted and was rushing was that I wanted a boyfriend because I wanted to get married. Why did I want that? Because that’s what I was told that I was supposed to want, right the examples laid before me. You know my sister married fairly young. At the time she was still married to her partner her ex-partner. You know my mom always emphasized how important it was for a woman to get married Right and, being an immigrant, that was one of the big things. It was just like we needed. Like we needed security and security for us as these like American girls was going to school but finding someone also to marry Right. So it’s like double security. And so I really wanted to get married at that time because I felt like that was what I should do.

07:32
I did not have the opportunity again to have reflective conversations with anyone and really examine if this was the right time for me to get married and who would make a good husband right. What would make a good life partner? These were never things that I had explored at all, were never things that I had explored at all when I was like 23, 24. I just saw tall, handsome and not a New Yorker, so had to be better than what I had grown up with and the fact that he had called me beautiful and that he like gave me attention. So when it was time to be like, hey, can we like be boyfriend and girlfriend? I mean, we’re spending all this time together, time to be like, hey, can we like be boyfriend and girlfriend? I mean we’re spending all this time together. Like I met your family, he wouldn’t call me his girlfriend and he, he was very adamant about not being ready to be my boyfriend. And y’all do you know what I did I waited. I completely ignored anybody else who would have given me attention. I completely just focused in on this person who blatantly told me what he wanted and didn’t want, right? He told me he was honest and said I don’t really want this. And I was like, well, I’m going to wait till you’re ready. And and I did that. And I waited for almost a year and then finally, almost, john said all right, I want you to be my girlfriend. And at that point we, john and I, were together for seven years, right? So this was a long, a long time that I gave to this person, but the only reason we lasted that long was because I was sitting there like this little I don’t know, like a sitting duck just waiting patiently for this person to say that I’m worthy of their time.

09:24
Flash forward to when it was time for us to get married. We had moved to Louisville together and but we hadn’t gotten engaged yet. And there was one night that I cried and I was like I can’t believe that. I moved all the way over here and like you haven’t proposed to me. So, like the next day, john takes me to the water, to the river, and proposes with like no ring, and proposes with like no ring, nothing. And I’m just like, okay, sure, right. But on the inside I felt sad again. You, whether or not you need a ring, that’s something to be determined between you, you and your partner, et cetera.

10:05
But here’s the thing there was no conversation, had my. I had never expressed my wishes in terms of like what I wanted it to look like, and so I just said that I wanted to get engaged, right, I just wanted the label. I wanted, you know, to move, move, move so quickly towards that marriage part. So he, he gave me the breadcrumbs, right. And so I walked around, I went to Macy’s, I got myself an engagement ring so that I could look like I was engaged because I cared so much about what everybody else was thinking, right, but I was just accepting breadcrumbs. And so, as we approached our wedding date, his mother, who was like an angel on this earth, she pulled me to the side and she was like Jesse, are you sure he wants to get married? And I was like, yeah, he does, he does. He just shows his enthusiasm like this. But those were all the signs that I needed, right, like someone’s own mother coming to me with love and affection and being like hey, like I don’t know about my son right now, and me completely being insistent and pushing forward anyway. And what did I get?

11:22
We ended up having a difficult marriage, right, we had a marriage where, you know, I started drinking more, where I would drink in secret. I was forcing something to happen that really probably didn’t need to. Obviously it to, so to speak. I mean, otherwise it wouldn’t have happened. But you know, I was really forcing a situation that didn’t need to be forced. And eventually things did fall apart, and a lot of that was my alcohol use. Right, because I was not happy I wasn’t getting my needs met, right, you don’t get your needs met when you’re constantly trying to force something to happen. These relationships, they have to be reciprocal, and me forcing John to try to give me everything that I wanted, it just wasn’t going to work.

12:09
Now, fast forward to sobriety. I don’t beg right. I mean now I’m with my partner, but I vividly remember an experience about two years ago, when I had started dating. There was somebody that I was dating dating again a nice guy and we had been seeing each other for about two months and at that point I felt like I knew him fairly well and I was comfortable with the idea of, you know, being exclusive. So I said I’d like to be exclusive and he turned to me and he said well, I’m still, you know, I’m not there yet.

12:46
And what I’m so proud of myself for sobriety is that when he said that, I was like, okay, well, if you aren’t there yet, then I’m going to go ahead and move on, because I know what I need and you’re letting me know that you can’t give it to me, right. But I’m so grateful for that and I’m so grateful that I could actually say what I wanted and just speak to it and then move on, right. But when I was younger, the lesson that would have been nice to have learned when I was married would have been, from the first part, like from the beginning you don’t beg for people to be with you, you just don’t. And so, again, a lesson I didn’t learn when I was younger, but the important part is that I know it now, right, like I’m not even 40 yet, and today I understand that I don’t beg for people’s company. So I still have many years ahead of me of not begging for people’s company, and for that I am eternally grateful.

13:41
The other thing, the other lesson that I want to talk about, is, um, that expectations really do create resentment. However, it also doesn’t mean that you don’t have standards right, and so you, you have to be. It’s not black or white. So, going back to my ex-spouse, going back to John, right, one of the big things that we often struggled with in our home, for example, was, just say, cleaning.

14:19
I would get resentful at John because John wouldn’t clean up, and so I was always the one cleaning up, but we, I would just like expect John to figure it out that I needed help with certain things, and then I would get really, really resentful because I didn’t like specifically ask for help with certain things Right. So, for example, if I went on vacation to visit my family in New York and he stayed home, I expected him to like clean up the house while I was gone so that I could come home to a clean house, cause I’ve always liked coming home to a clean house but instead what would happen was I would just come home, the house would be messy and then I would get pissed. So then we would have like this sort of like big old argument where I would be like, well, you should know by now that I like a clean house, so why would you leave the house so messy when I’m, you know, when I’m gone, um, but other things, going back to say that engagement piece, right, or that marriage piece, there were a lot of expectations that I was putting on him that, to be honest, he wasn’t expected to meet. But if I had known that he wasn’t interested in say, giving me those things, I could have gone somewhere else where I could have had those standards met, right, those needs met. But instead I kept trying to force things. And so one of the big things that I learned from my relationship with John, right, it’s just that expectations, that whole mind reading thing that’s going to absolutely create resentment. But you do need to have your standards met and so you do want to have that clear communication. You do want to be able to feel safe to voice what you need, what you want, and the right person is going to meet those needs. The wrong person won’t. But you won’t know if someone is the right or the wrong person if you don’t verbalize what you need. You have to speak up, you have to be authentic and let the wrong people fall to the wayside and let the right ones come up and step forward, For example, going back to now or flashing forward dating time.

16:25
I would always let people know that I, who, at about two, three months, I was like I’m, I’m ready for a relationship. In that case, I let him know exactly what my expectations were. I do want a long-term relationship. I do want something steady that can build into something more. And when he wasn’t able to meet those, I understood, I didn’t take it personally and I moved on Right.

16:51
And then eventually, I did find my partner who, when I said those things that I was interested in something long-term and serious, he that was something that he also wanted, and so he was willing to reciprocate it. So I think it’s important to remember those things right. That, as opposed to what I did when I was married, right, like, I want something long-term, you don’t want to give it to me? Well, I’m just going to sit here and wait and wait and wait until you give me what I want, but I’m going to get resentful as hell towards you because I’m being stubborn, it’s like no, we’ve just got to learn to let those things go. And then the last thing is, it’s really also not up to us to fix and save others right or solve their problems. To fix and save others right or solve their problems when I was married um, you know, I hope John has figured out what he’s wanted to do with himself, say, professionally.

17:41
But you know he went through several transitions in terms of, like work, work situations, and you know one role wasn’t happy with it and then would switch, and so you know, I found myself as the primary like, say, the breadwinner, so to speak, with a more stable work. But I always was kind of waiting for him to like figure things out, or me trying to like step up and take care of like all the bills and things like that, so that that way. You know, he would have time to figure himself out. But John was like that even before we got married and I remember I didn’t like it and it was a concern for me, but I just turned that blind eye to it and I was like, well, I’ve got this. You know, like John can go and figure himself out, but I’ve got this.

18:32
And I was really more focused on John’s potential as opposed to like what he was offering me. And you know he wasn’t necessarily offering me stability, right, and he wasn’t offering me a sense of that. He was happy and comfortable with himself. And so, you know, one of the things that for me, it’s really important now is to not try to rescue someone. If someone is going through a tough time because we’re going to our partners are going to be humans, right, our partners are going to have difficult moments, but we have to recognize that it’s not our job to fix them. We can hold space for them, we can ask them is there anything that we can do to support? We can let them just talk and unload, right. We can offer advice if they’re interested in receiving it, but it’s not our job to pick up all the pieces after them, always just because they’re struggling, and that was the thing with my ex John.

19:28
There were a lot of things that John was struggling with, including some identity issues, and I just kind of kept dancing around everything just so that he can be comfortable, but at the end of the day, I was just growing really resentful, right. And so it’s so important that, when you are with somebody, that you ask yourself if you are okay with them exactly as they are today, or are you hoping that they change? Are you hoping that they become more secure? Are you hoping that they become more stable? And so you’re dating them now with the hopes that they turn out a certain way, because we do not control outcomes. Right, we can always put, in best faith, effort into anything, but we don’t control outcomes, and we especially don’t control other people, and we don’t control how other people turn out. We might be able to influence them, right, but we don’t control them, and so that was a huge thing that I did not learn with John.

20:29
I really thought that I can help him figure himself out, and that was not my place, that was not my job, that was not my role, and so, with that being said, I just kind of wanted to share those things because, again, it’s it’s wild that I was married 11 years ago, right and, and that was a marriage that lasted for four years. Um, my drinking definitely negatively impacted that relationship and I definitely drank to cope with the fact that I kept pushing something to exist that probably really didn’t need to exist, right and. So, um, I’m grateful that we were able to separate and move on with our lives. I hope John is well, wherever John is on the planet and whatever John is up to. But that was all. I just really wanted to reflect a little bit on that.

21:25
And so if there’s anything that you get from listening to this episode if you’re still listening at this point it’s remember what you’ve gone through serves as a learning experience. Seriously, even if at the moment it feels really hard, and even if at that moment it feels like it’s never ending, or you just don’t get why you’re going through something, or if someone that you love just throws you a huge fucking curve ball and you’re like, whoa, where did this come from, just remember that it’s all getting filed away as life experience for you. That will help you in the future when you get presented with a similar scenario again, or it’s going to help someone else when you open your mouth and communicate with another human being, to create connection right. So just keep those things in mind. So with that, I hope you are well.

22:19
Thank you so much for listening and I will catch you on the next one. Hey, if you are enjoying what you are listening to, I invite you to subscribe and share the podcast, but also go to my website, bottomless to sobercom, and find out other opportunities to work with me, from free workshops to writing classes to one-to-one life coaching opportunities. You can schedule a free consultation for that. Everything is available at bottomless to sober.com. See you then.

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Link to Spotify

In this episode:

This episode isn’t just about recounting childhood memories of me stealing money for food; it’s an exploration of how writing can serve as a potent tool for healing. I discuss the cathartic experience of writing about one of my childhood stories and how it helps untangle the deep-rooted issues that often lead to substance abuse. By embracing the lessons of our past, much like the Sankofa tattoo on my arm symbolizes, we can pave a way for genuine recovery and a brighter future.

Resources:

Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Classes, and Workshops

Six-Week Writing for Healing Program – Reduced Registration Through March 31st!

Mother Hunger Book Study – Starts March 30th

Study: Greater self-oriented and socially prescribed perfectionism in severe alcohol use disorder

Study: Children’s Proneness to Shame and Guilt Predict Risky and Illegal Behaviors in Young Adulthood

Study: Drinking Too Much and Feeling Bad About It? How Group Identification Moderates Experiences of Guilt and Shame Following Norm Transgression

Transcript:

00:19 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Hey, everyone, for this week’s episode, I actually wanted to share a bit of some writing that I started and abruptly decided not to finish just because I felt like not using it anymore, and I’m giving myself permission to just kind of randomly share it. However, this piece of writing was definitely cathartic for me, and so for any of you who are just looking for opportunities to do storytelling of your own, I encourage you to sign up for my six week writing for healing program. We are starting back up in June and I have discounted pricing through the end of March, through March 31st, before the prices go up to full price. So please sign up. If this is something that you have been kind of sitting on and hesitating to do, I hope you take this episode as an opportunity to be like oh, maybe I should go ahead and write. So, anyway, I’ll go ahead and now read what I have, and I hope that you resonate with it in some way, shape or form. No one is looking.

01:18
I thought as 10 year old me pulled $3 bills from the envelope mommy used to hide cash. I snuck into my parents’ bedroom and quietly dialed Waming Kitchen’s phone number. Waming Kitchen was the quote unquote ghetto Chinese spot in the neighborhood I grew up in. The chicken wings were to die for and everyone in the community crowded inside to place orders from behind bulletproof glass. I, however, was too young to be allowed to go out on my own, even across the street, so I had to sneak in my delivery orders and a loud Chinese accent. I heard a woman say you know, hello, waming, how can I help you? My voice quivered as I whispered in response hi, can I get chicken wings and french fries with hot sauce and ketchup? I then gave our address, snuck down the stairs and waited for the lady’s son to show up on his bike with my delivery. As if it were a drug deal, I slipped in the money, hoping that none of the neighbors saw this illicit transaction. Then I crept back upstairs to my room and rushed to eat so I wouldn’t get caught. Once finished, I sealed the food in a plastic bag and hid it until I could throw it out in a trash can, far from my mother’s sight. I felt like shit Stealing from my mother just to get some food. What kind of person was I?

02:39
I continued these same behaviors, though, over the years, and eventually they transferred over from food to alcohol. I remember, in 2020, battling my addiction hard after my boyfriend’s death by overdose, and sneaking out of my sister’s house to grab a secret booze delivery, then trying to hide the bottle so I wouldn’t get caught drinking in her home, after she explicitly had asked me not to do so. I was lost. But here’s the thing everything has a point of origin, right, and the timing of my addiction to alcohol goes back to Brooklyn in the 1990s.

03:15
Drinking, or any addiction for that matter, has a root cause that is outwardly shown, obviously, by the individual’s abuse of a substance. But, honestly, addiction itself is a symptom of something more profound. We can address the symptoms as much as we like. We can make all the attempts to abstain from alcohol, drugs or other problematic behaviors. Still, if we keep ignoring why we are escaping life in the first place, we’ll never be able to fight our addictions.

03:41
When we stop drinking, many of us are often left with the question what now? You need to look at your past before you move forward. I have a tattoo on my arm which is a rendition of the Sankofa symbol. Sankofa originates from Ghana and the symbol is a bird that is moving forward while holding a piece of its past in its mouth. The idea is that successful movement into the future requires taking a part of the past with us In recovery. Our past does not define our future, but coming to terms with the root cause of our drinking in the first place and taking that knowledge with us is what will let us fly forward as the Sankofa does.

04:25
This notion of looking back and digging deep is also counterintuitive for many of us as people with complicated relationships with alcohol and other drugs. We flee from memories and feelings to function by drinking or engaging with other mind-altering substances. We force the memories of our past far away from our stream of consciousness, often because they are so painful. We become masters of compartmentalization and we lock away the parts of ourselves that we find inconvenient to face. We fail to realize that if life will keep putting us in situations that will repeat themselves until we gain and apply the knowledge that we’re meant to acquire, I’m going to repeat that we fail to realize that life will keep putting us in situations that will repeat themselves until we gain and apply the knowledge we’re meant to acquire. Until we do, we will fall into things like the repetitive cycle of relapse. I know because my own relapses led me to be hospitalized eight times. I was hospitalized eight times for stays ranging from three days up to five weeks because I continuously avoided addressing the core of my symptoms.

05:34
As I previously stated, the root of my drinking is in my childhood. I will not sit here and state that I had a terrible childhood because overall, I didn’t. For the most part, everything, or a lot of things, were fine. Everything was not fine, but most things were fair enough. Most days I remember them as uneventful or routine or structured. I had hardworking immigrant parents. I was raised in a two-family home in Brooklyn alongside my sister, sophia, who’s 12 years, my senior. Growing up, I did well in school and I never got in trouble. I never lacked any essential needs. My housing was always stable. We always had food.

06:15
Some of my favorite memories include my dad, who was not a reading and writing fan, taking me to the library weekly. I would go inside and select all sorts of books that would stand out from the shelves, and I loved books like Goosebumps and Sweet Valley High. But I also grabbed some educational content because my mother liked to review everything I would read and I wasn’t allowed to only read for fun. She wanted me to read for academic purposes and I want to read for fun, so together we made it work. I was into sharks history, and so I mainly borrowed nonfiction books about marine life, biographies and wars yes, I know it’s incredibly random, and occasionally I would grab something in Spanish to maintain my literacy there. And again, my parents did the best that they could to take care of us and listen. I say this often because it is critical for me to not reattach myself to old pain that I have already worked on releasing. I have to remind myself that I am always healing from this part of my story, because the thing is that as I grew my relationship with my parents, especially my mother, it did fuel my strengths, but it also birthed the void that I would desperately try to fill throughout my life.

07:27
As I wrote earlier, I did well in school. I was a model student, both in conduct and academic performance, which definitely made my parents happy. I loved seeing how I could lift their spirits whenever I brought a good test score home. I would beg them to attend parent-teacher conferences, just so that I could see my mom’s face light up as my teachers told her all about how great I was. Their praise lit a fire in me right when my parents had something good to say after a parent conference. It would just light me up, and so doing well in school was the perfect means to that end.

08:03
My education was a non-negotiable to our family. My parents could not access adequate schooling in their respective countries, contrary to what is commonly taught about Cuban education. My father and my mom, though she was great at math, she didn’t go past the fifth grade in Costa Rica. So I was their American dream, and at an early age it meant being the best student. I loved praise for the work I did well at school because it would spill into our home life. I would hear my parents talking about how smart I was whenever they spoke to a family member or friend on the phone or in person. Everything was lovely about the recognition I got from my parents.

08:41
Until now, as an adult, I understand that that was the only thing about me that I ever got affirmations for right, and so as a kid I put the two and two together not consciously right, but just sort of subconsciously that my measure of value and worth. It was conditional and it required me to put up a performance of being a model student, which I took that with me into my womanhood, and being a model employee, right, the teacher of the year, et cetera. Like I learned at a really young age that many benefits come from good performances, and so my perfectionism was born. And what’s even wilder is and I’ll put this in the show notes that recent studies show that individuals with alcohol use disorder can display perfectionism as a trait which made perfect sense right as I became that high achieving professional. Once I was no longer a student.

09:35
And here’s the thing for all the praise I received for being an excellent student, I received an equal amount of criticism through fat shaming for my weight. I was an overweight kid, so much so that I remember when my third grade teacher had to measure each student’s height and weight in our class in third grade, when she saw how much I weighed because I was over 150 pounds this woman chuckled and she said whoa, you’re a little heavy, aren’t you? The fact that I am 39 and writing this today shows how I will never forget how uncomfortable that made me, and after that moment I swore I would never make anybody else feel that way and as an educator, I have vowed to never make a single student of mine feel how that teacher made me feel in that moment. But then here’s the thing right. Like in my family’s culture, being direct or outright mean was acceptable, no matter how painful it was for the recipient to hear this critical commentary. Also, being fat was something that nobody wanted for their daughters, so my parents, especially my mother, did their best to quote unquote help me by continuously fat shaming me. Right, but like here’s a news flash, you can’t shame people into changing their behavior.

10:51
In my mother’s eyes, I always ate demasiado, meaning too much. Right. Whenever I was hungry, she would get so outwardly angry at the fact that I wanted to eat otra vez. Right Again. In Spanish, I can’t tell you how often I heard por eso es que está como está. Right. In English, that means that’s why she is as fat as she is, which is something my mother stated whenever I served myself just about any portion of food or dared to have a snack. I hated family gatherings and still resist them in adulthood, because my weight was always the first thing that relatives commented on and my parents did nothing to defend me. My father stayed quiet and my mom actively joined in the conversations about my body. I got so confused whenever someone in my family had something to say about weight in my food, right, I couldn’t wrap my mind or my head around the fact that, like I enjoyed food, but at the same time, I was getting in trouble almost every damn time I wanted to eat, I developed shame for the first time, but I didn’t understand what it was that I was feeling. As a grown woman, I know what it is right.

11:57
Brene Brown states that shame is the intensely painful feeling or experience of believing that we are flawed and therefore unworthy of love or belonging. Right, so, and here’s the thing with shame Shame, it’s a powerful feeling that can be tied to drinking. Right, I mean, there’s several studies that link shame and drinking. There was a study done in 2015 that actually showed that there was an increase in shame. That increased shame in fifth graders led to earlier drinking as teens. And then, if you look at college students, there was a different study that showed that students who experienced shame when they thought that they drank more than their peers would actually then go ahead and drink more as a direct result of thinking that there was something flawed with them. Right and again. I’ll put these studies in the show notes.

12:45
So the fat shaming really led me to think that I was not worthy. Because I thought that I was not beautiful. I had internalized this false belief that I was less than everyone else and I always felt that if I could just eat less and get a little bit smaller, that I would be more acceptable to my parents and my family. My mother, maybe more boys would like me at school or I could get to wear nicer clothes. But I could never manage to eat less and as time passed I ate more, but in secret. From the age of 10 until last year, as a 38 year old, I have literally spent my entire life on a diet of some sort and I vividly remember you all.

13:25
The first time someone called me beautiful, it was my sophomore year of college. I was sitting on the floor of my friend Stephanie’s Columbia University dorm room. I went to Barnard. Barnard is a part of Columbia University. Well, I dropped out. You know, spoiler alert alcohol in college not good, but anyway.

13:43
We were getting ready to order, you know, some burritos when this guy named Earl, who was this incredibly handsome friend of mine. At the time, he just abruptly turned to me and said you’re one of the most beautiful people I know. I mean you all. I was stunned. I just quietly smiled and said thanks, but inside I thought what the hell are you talking about? Growing up, my parents, especially my mother, never said such things to me, so why would I suddenly believe those words from someone else as a young adult? At that time, the only thing that made me feel good about myself was my academic performance or food. Alcohol had not yet entered the chat, and so if I couldn’t be beautiful, I would be smart, and when things felt heavy on the inside, food and eventually alcohol would be there to provide some temporary ease. And so that’s pretty much where I abruptly ended it. Again, it was. This was just a draft of something I was starting to like reflect on, and it was really cathartic to get this out, and so, again, I just wanted to share it with you.

14:51
A reminder my six week Writing for Healing program will be on Monday night starting in June. Early registration discount is offered through March 31st, so I so hope to see you in this class If you’re interested in a book. Also, I am starting the Motherhunger book study, starting on March 30th as well, so check out those opportunities. And, of course, as you know, I always have life coaching available as well. So thanks so much for listening, sending you all the love and appreciate you for your time today. Hey, if you are enjoying what you are listening to, I invite you to subscribe and share the podcast, but also go to my website, bottomlessdeseobercom, and find out other opportunities to work with me, from free workshops to writing classes to one-to-one life coaching opportunities. You can schedule a free consultation for that. Everything is available at bottomlesstosober.com. See you then.

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